Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Diogenes
Guru
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
Location: Washington
Has thanked: 862 times
Been thanked: 1265 times

Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?
___________________________________

Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves

— Confucius

User avatar
Inquirer
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 6:03 pm
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #191

Post by Inquirer »

DrNoGods wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:18 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #187]
Concluding that nobody ever lived over 900 years is not a provable statement, like it or not, it is speculation, absolutely nobody has the ability to prove it false - that doesn't make it true by any means, but we should not lose sight of this.
Skepticism that any human ever lived to over 200 years, much less 900 years, is certainly justified.
Yes, I agree.
DrNoGods wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:18 pm Just because it can't be proven to be false does not make it reasonable to believe that something so unlikely actually happened in the past.
Yes, I agree.
DrNoGods wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:18 pm The physiological changes such a human would need make it so improbable that it can safely be regarded as myth.
One can reason that way but there are many assumptions there, all reasoning is based on assumptions and sometimes it is necessary to adjust our assumptions. When we adjust the assumptions we can reason differently.

For example if we assumed the Bible was mythical because (say) there's no evidence for a universal flood or that the Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptians but then found concrete evidence for these, we'd be compelled (if we were honest) to review our position and accept the possibility that other apparently mythical claims might also be true, only apparently false.
DrNoGods wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:18 pm It is no different from a claim that some human made an unaided high jump of 100 feet, or ran the mile in 30 seconds. These are things humans today are incapable of doing by huge margins, and going backwards in time all evidence suggests that humans lived for less time than today, not more. A 900+ year old human living in biblical times would have to be nothing like humans of today ... enough different to classify them as something other than member of the genus Homo.
The claim that humans in the past lived for "less time" than we do today is itself a myth so you are advised to check your data before making such bold claims, Jose Fly also made this same error recently.
YOU MIGHT HAVE seen the cartoon: two cavemen sitting outside their cave knapping stone tools. One says to the other: “Something’s just not right—our air is clean, our water is pure, we all get plenty of exercise, everything we eat is organic and free-range, and yet nobody lives past 30.”

This cartoon reflects a very common view of ancient lifespans, but it is based on a myth. People in the past were not all dead by 30. Ancient documents confirm this. In the 24th century B.C., the Egyptian Vizier Ptahhotep wrote verses about the disintegrations of old age. The ancient Greeks classed old age among the divine curses, and their tombstones attest to survival well past 80 years. Ancient artworks and figurines also depict elderly people: stooped, flabby, wrinkled.
Read more here: Sapiens Magazine.

User avatar
DrNoGods
Prodigy
Posts: 2716
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Nevada
Has thanked: 593 times
Been thanked: 1642 times

Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #192

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Inquirer in post #191]
For example if we assumed the Bible was mythical because (say) there's no evidence for a universal flood or that the Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptians but then found concrete evidence for these, we'd be compelled (if we were honest) to review our position and accept the possibility that other apparently mythical claims might also be true, only apparently false.
But science can be brought to bear on things like the global flood story and show that it could not have happened at any time humans have inhabited the planet. There is no source for that much water to start with, not even close, so it can be discarded for that reason alone. When you add in all the other considerations relating to animal and plant distributions, archeology, geology, etc. the story is clearly a myth (similar to others before it).
The claim that humans in the past lived for "less time" than we do today is itself a myth so you are advised to check your data before making such bold claims...
Bold claim? Certainly a few people back in biblical times may have made it into their 80s or 90s, but in general both life expectancy and the percentage of people making it past 80 have increased over time due to modern medicines, treatments (eg. for heart disease and cancer), vaccines, food and water safety, etc. These advances guarantee that the percentage of people making into their 80s back in biblical times would be much lower than today even for the rich who would have access to the best treatments of the time.

Regardless, there's no reason to believe that any individual in those times could have had a lifespan 9-10x longer (!) than the oldest people living today. It is nonsense and at odds with what we do know about human aging, and observed lifespans.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14003
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #193

Post by William »

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #189]
It is no different from a claim that some human made an unaided high jump of 100 feet, or ran the mile in 30 seconds. These are things humans today are incapable of doing by huge margins, and going backwards in time all evidence suggests that humans lived for less time than today, not more. A 900+ year old human living in biblical times would have to be nothing like humans of today ... enough different to classify them as something other than member of the genus Homo.
This is correct and even with the argument that folk lived a lot longer in epochs past - even to die of old age in their 90's - does not address what you are pointing out DNG.

There is a point [in relation to the common evidence] where claims of how [someone/anyone] lived beyond the old age of 90-120 Sun Cycles have to be understood as absurd. There is no way around that conclusion until such a time as it can be shown in nature to be the case that a human being can live any longer than 90-120.

One is free to believe in the truth of stories, but arguing belief in the truth of stories is inferior to arguing what the evidences shows us - re - The main overall story of this experiential reality...

Attempting to overlay/superimpose one's belief in the truth of stories as being more truthful than the main overall story itself, is possibly an act of immorality, if indeed - upon further evidence - one continues to attempt to have the superimposed thing used to conceal the real.

[The stuff of Magic]
Image

User avatar
Inquirer
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 6:03 pm
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #194

Post by Inquirer »

DrNoGods wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:59 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #191]
For example if we assumed the Bible was mythical because (say) there's no evidence for a universal flood or that the Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptians but then found concrete evidence for these, we'd be compelled (if we were honest) to review our position and accept the possibility that other apparently mythical claims might also be true, only apparently false.
But science can be brought to bear on things like the global flood story and show that it could not have happened at any time humans have inhabited the planet. There is no source for that much water to start with, not even close, so it can be discarded for that reason alone. When you add in all the other considerations relating to animal and plant distributions, archeology, geology, etc. the story is clearly a myth (similar to others before it).
As I said "but then found concrete evidence for these" any honest pursuer for truth will reevaluate their position in light of new evidence. The point I was making is that if you found some presumed false belief to be in fact true, then you'd have to admit the possibility that other presumed false claims might be true. This is a long way of saying we should - every scientist should - always retain an open mind.
DrNoGods wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:59 pm
The claim that humans in the past lived for "less time" than we do today is itself a myth so you are advised to check your data before making such bold claims...
Bold claim? Certainly a few people back in biblical times may have made it into their 80s or 90s, but in general both life expectancy and the percentage of people making it past 80 have increased over time due to modern medicines, treatments (eg. for heart disease and cancer), vaccines, food and water safety, etc. These advances guarantee that the percentage of people making into their 80s back in biblical times would be much lower than today even for the rich who would have access to the best treatments of the time.

Regardless, there's no reason to believe that any individual in those times could have had a lifespan 9-10x longer (!) than the oldest people living today. It is nonsense and at odds with what we do know about human aging, and observed lifespans.
Did you not read the article I cited? are the facts unwelcome?

Do you dispute the extracts from that article?
Many of us believe our ancestors lived much shorter lives than we do. Cutting-edge archaeology shows otherwise.
People in the past were not all dead by 30. Ancient documents confirm this. In the 24th century B.C., the Egyptian Vizier Ptahhotep wrote verses about the disintegrations of old age. The ancient Greeks classed old age among the divine curses, and their tombstones attest to survival well past 80 years. Ancient artworks and figurines also depict elderly people: stooped, flabby, wrinkled.
This is not the only type of evidence, however. Studies on extant traditional people who live far away from modern medicines and markets, such as Tanzania’s Hadza or Brazil’s Xilixana Yanomami, have demonstrated that the most likely age at death is far higher than most people assume: It’s about 70 years old.
We measured the wear on the teeth of these people, and then seriated the population from those with the most-worn teeth—the oldest—to those with the least-worn. We did this for the whole population, not just the elderly, to act as a control. We then matched them against a known model population with a similar age structure and allocated the individuals with the most-worn teeth to the oldest ages. By matching the Worthy Park teeth to the model population, the invisible elderly soon become visible. Not only were we able to see how many people lived to a grand old age but also which ones were 75 years or older and which were a few years past 50.
Seeing the invisible elderly has led to other discoveries. It has often been suggested that more men than women lived to older age in the past because of the dangers of pregnancy and childbirth, but our study suggests otherwise.
The maximum human lifespan (approximately 125 years) has barely changed since we arrived.
This is a scientific peer reviewed publication.

If a person five thousand years ago had lived for 900 years, do you not think that it would be remarkable to the rest of the population? do you not think they'd note this, record this, tell others of this, do their best to pass this amazing information on to later generations?

Well that's what they did, it likely never crossed their minds they'd be accused of lying and making things up because later generations would insist on viewing the world through the narrow lens of scientism.

We are (we are told) closely related to apes, well what of Gigantopithecus? by some estimates this creature stood 9ft perhaps as tall as 12ft. How do you know that some similar unusual longevity was not present at some point in the past in some tribe or clan of ancient people?

You don't, you have absolutely no idea if anyone in the past lived for 200, 300, 600 or 900 years, absolutely no idea!

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #195

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:26 pm You don't, you have absolutely no idea if anyone in the past lived for 200, 300, 600 or 900 years, absolutely no idea!
If we're to accept biblical claims of folks living to 900 years old cause "ya can't show they didn't ", we might as well accept claims of anal violating alien abductions.

When "ya can't show it ain't " is the best argument for a claim, "ya can't show it is" becomes even more compelling.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

User avatar
Inquirer
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 6:03 pm
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #196

Post by Inquirer »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:03 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:26 pm You don't, you have absolutely no idea if anyone in the past lived for 200, 300, 600 or 900 years, absolutely no idea!
If we're to accept biblical claims of folks living to 900 years old cause "ya can't show they didn't ", we might as well accept claims of anal violating alien abductions.

When "ya can't show it ain't " is the best argument for a claim, "ya can't show it is" becomes even more compelling.
Not again, I mean must we?

Nowhere have I argued that the claims about living past 900 must be believed because we can't show the claims to be false. That's a fact, I have not said that so please don't make stuff up.

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 9342
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 883 times
Been thanked: 1242 times

Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #197

Post by Clownboat »

Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:36 am These claims about living over 900 years are represented as being untenable because they conflict not with observational data bit with the beliefs held by these critics.
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Belief in 900 year old humans is untenable because such claims do conflict with observational data. Same goes for talking donkeys, living inside of fishes or 500 saints coming out of their graves and walking the streets of Jerusalem. The ONLY reason for believing such things is because they are found in a holy book you have chosen to place your faith in. There is no other source to justify such claims.

Readers, ask yourselves if these stories should be rejected due to the beliefs held by a critic as Inquirer would have you believe, or for being irrational claims that do conflict with observational data.
I do not regard the Bible as a special case other than to the extent that it represents revealed knowledge from the creator of the universe and all it contains.
You didn't proof read this did you?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
DrNoGods
Prodigy
Posts: 2716
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Nevada
Has thanked: 593 times
Been thanked: 1642 times

Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #198

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Inquirer in post #194]
Did you not read the article I cited? are the facts unwelcome?

Do you dispute the extracts from that article?
Since I did not dispute anything in the article earlier, I won't respond to the excerpts as they aren't relevent. But you seem to be disputing this one:

"The maximum human lifespan (approximately 125 years) has barely changed since we arrived."

This peer-reviewed science paper does not support or even suggest that humans could ever reach anything like 900 year ages.
If a person five thousand years ago had lived for 900 years, do you not think that it would be remarkable to the rest of the population? do you not think they'd note this, record this, tell others of this, do their best to pass this amazing information on to later generations?

Well that's what they did, it likely never crossed their minds they'd be accused of lying and making things up because later generations would insist on viewing the world through the narrow lens of scientism.
People have always told stories, and the telephone game has been around far longer than the telephone. Stories about 900+ year old people, some attributed to people who likely never actually existed themselves (eg. Moses who supposedly lived to 120, or Abraham to 175), cannot be taken as representing reality just because they are found in a holy book. Stories abound in these types of books that are far wilder than 900+ year old people. Should we believe all of them?
We are (we are told) closely related to apes, well what of Gigantopithecus? by some estimates this creature stood 9ft perhaps as tall as 12ft. How do you know that some similar unusual longevity was not present at some point in the past in some tribe or clan of ancient people?
Gigantopithecus was not a member of the genus Homo and is thought to be more closely related to orangutans. So not particularly relevant to humans. But 9-12' is only about twice the height of a human ... not a factor of 10, and there are plenty of other animal examples where their sizes were gigantic compared to similar animals today (eg. megalodon). The genus Homo has only been around for some 2-3 million years, and humans of the type described in the OT were evidently anatomically modern humans (ie. Homo sapiens). There is zero evidence of any kind that humans living in biblical times (whenever that actually was ... people can't even agree on that) reached anywhere near 900 years of age. Physiologically that is impossible if they were in fact Homo sapiens and not some mythical category of human that doesn't exist today and that we have no evidence for in the fossil record.
You don't, you have absolutely no idea if anyone in the past lived for 200, 300, 600 or 900 years, absolutely no idea!
I do have an idea (they didn't). There is zero evidence for it, and zero physiological basis for any Homo sapien being able to live anywhere near 900 years of age. It is a myth, and I can be as sure of that as I am that Noah's flood never happened, humans can't high jump 70 feet, or run a mile in 30 seconds.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

User avatar
Inquirer
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 6:03 pm
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #199

Post by Inquirer »

Clownboat wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:41 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:36 am These claims about living over 900 years are represented as being untenable because they conflict not with observational data bit with the beliefs held by these critics.
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Belief in 900 year old humans is untenable because such claims do conflict with observational data.
What observational data might that be? May I see it?
Clownboat wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:41 pm Same goes for talking donkeys, living inside of fishes or 500 saints coming out of their graves and walking the streets of Jerusalem. The ONLY reason for believing such things is because they are found in a holy book you have chosen to place your faith in. There is no other source to justify such claims.
That might have been your reason for believing Biblical claims back in the day, it is nothing to do with my position. That your unfortunate experiences with religion haunt you to this day, has no bearing on the matter at hand.
Clownboat wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:41 pm
Readers, ask yourselves if these stories should be rejected due to the beliefs held by a critic as Inquirer would have you believe, or for being irrational claims that do conflict with observational data.
I do not regard the Bible as a special case other than to the extent that it represents revealed knowledge from the creator of the universe and all it contains.
You didn't proof read this did you?
Any information revealed to us supernaturally has to be the epitome of "special case".

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14003
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #200

Post by William »

[Replying to Inquirer in post #199]

I do not regard the Bible as a special case other than to the extent that it represents supposed revealed knowledge from a religious idea of a creator of the universe and all it contains. ftfy

Post Reply