Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

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The Nice Centurion
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Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #1

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Perhaps the most quantitative appearing of any resurrected demigod ever!
I told you] that [Jesus] appeared to Cephas [Peter]; then to the twelve; then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom most remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one malformed, he appeared to me too, for I am the least of the apostles, who is not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
It is the "favorite child" of resurrected Jesus apologists!

Most probable explanation according to Richard Carrier:

Paul cannot mean Jesus hung around with his followers for days or weeks. Paul’s use of “all at once” for only one single event, and his entire sequence (Cephas, and then each of the Twelve, and then the brethren, and then James, and then each of the Apostles, and then Paul), entails these were isolated, momentary visions. They came, and went. Paul therefore cannot mean a lingering Jesus who stuck around and dined with them for days on end. That simply isn’t what he is describing here. At all. And yet this fact strongly supports explanations from the cognitive science of religious experience: these were visions; not a reanimated body. A reanimated body would stick around.

. . .

The most probable thing that could have happened is that all the brethren in the congregation at that time, riling themselves up into an ecstasy on Pentecost owing to its prophetic and religious significance, and the exciting and hope-fulfilling claims of the Twelve, had a Fatima-style mass experience, in an altered state hallucinating amorphous lights above them, and feeling the Presence of the Lord, and then concluded this was an instance of Jesus having appeared to them, now in his celestial and supernatural form. Probably no auditory element was present, no verbal revelation, not only because none is recorded (not even in Acts), but that would have made this into an apostolic election. And Paul clearly does not think it was. These brethren did not become, and thus are not described as, apostles. The apostles appear in the next verse.

Scientifically, what happened would be like that Fatima scenario: each individual had his own private hallucination of a miraculous light, each one different from the next, but because it was amorphous and only communicable in the abstract (“I see lights above us!”) there was no way to “compare notes” (even if they were inclined to) so as to discover they were seeing different things (and they likely wouldn’t conclude so anyway: most believers in the Fatima case didn’t). And they all had this experience at once because all were exciting themselves into the same altered state on the same religious occasion, just as with the Fatima events. The well-studied scientific facts of anchoring and memory contamination and the power of suggestion and need of belonging (and thus the need to have seen or felt the same things as one’s comrades, or at least claim to have) would ensure the resulting story became more and more homogeneous over time.

Just as it could have come to be told that the Virgin Mary “appeared” to hundreds of witnesses at Fatima, so it could have come to be told that Jesus “appeared” to hundreds of witnesses at Pentecost. There is no evidence against this being what happened. And it has the highest prior probability, given all the background knowledge we have about how these claims commonly originate and come to be told. Corpses don’t rise. But masses of people do claim divine beings have appeared to them—when all that really happened was a subjective ecstatic hallucination of lights in the sky. It thus doesn’t matter if any Corinthians could “check” Paul’s claim by finding any of these people. If they even did (I thoroughly cover that problem in Chs. 7 and 13 of Not the Impossible Faith), the witnesses would simply report they saw Jesus as a fabulous light, and so decisively felt his presence that they could not be mistaken, and the usual psychosomatic miracles of “tongues” and “healing” proved it. Which is what the Corinthians would already know. And back then, who could prove it wasn’t real?

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255
But I find that the heaviest argument about this one time mass appearance is that so many people cannot verify a popping up and vanishing again person. Not even if Jesus appeared in the collosseum arena with his 500 fans rounded up around him as audience!

Am I right that all this disqualifies Jesus alleged appearance to 50ü brethren?
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #21

Post by The Nice Centurion »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:36 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:34 am Can you link me to said "slaughter-fest" (sic) ?
Yeah I can send you a link...its called YOUTUBE.



Ever heard of it?
Because I read that argument from a believer one time years ago on online debate somewhere.


Was that you?
Not I.
I assume it is this debate. Video is off here, but the comments are interesting and informal!

https://www.debunking-christianity.com/ ... g.html?m=1
:D
Answer in Carriers own words:
And the only way Craig got a technical win against me is that he ran out the clock. If you think preventing me from stating my rebuttals is a fair way to win a debate, you have a problem.
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/4212
It seems a common method of christian apologists to avoid their debaters rebuttals like plague where possible 'cause they dont think themselves capable of rebutting them again.

That seems the reason why our friend We_Are_VENOM wont stop to insist that unbelievers shouldnt comment the bible.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #22

Post by TRANSPONDER »

neverknewyou wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:31 am [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #18]

They edit for theological purposes, that is the purpose of scripture, it's self serving.
That doesn't matter. The purpose of someone telling a 'Theology' (it might be Chophra -Woo, a pyramid- scheme,a political sell, advertising a clunk product peddling a religion) is to persuade. Analysis of the story and the the mechanics and construction can indicate whether it is credible or not. The Ology they are trying to sell is not of primary importance
The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:48 am [Replying to neverknewyou in post #19]
How can they bring themselves to edit what is supposed to be their gods word ?
Isnt that blasphemous ?
Or were all editors inspired too, by an allknowing god who wanted to edit out his allknowing errors ?

That would be a fitting god for Bart Errorman, save the later never edits his errors out of his books.

He leves that work to Richard Carrier without even saying "thank you" !
That's a very good question. And it's why I find the subject of faithbased thinking so fascinating. We've seen the process here when Faith- claims come under pressure. They make up explanations. Now I won't say here whether those are credible or not, but what happen is that the 'edited' argument will diverge from another apologist who is coming up with other explanations. Thus they will contradict.

In theology I can then say "When you agree on how it is, get back to me." But if this were to happen with (say) people involved in a crime case, then contradictions in the story (that can't be explained as "Witness Error") will break their story, and we know this is one of the ways crime cases are broken.

The 4 gospels do this all the time. They have been making stuff up, for whatever reason, and the story of the resurrection, specifically is broken, even if the original basic Jesus -story isn't.

Why then do we get supposed retired detectives claiming that the resurrection would stand up in a court of law? I haven't watched that video debate (I do find debates on the resurrection disappointing) but I did deal with a posted resurrection apologetic by lane - Craig and it was trash. Mere Lawyer -tricks, basically 'What other explanation is there?' and "The disciples would not die for a lie."

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Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #23

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:58 am It seems a common method of christian apologists to avoid their debaters rebuttals like plague where possible 'cause they dont think themselves capable of rebutting them again.
Nonsense...so basically, you provided a quote from Carrier regarding his own opinion (excuses) about a debate of which he was destroyed in?

Gotcha.

I guess all I have to do is pull up a quote from Craig about how he demolished Carrier, and the two quotes will cancel each other out.

C'mon now.

Second, if you actually watched the debate and are also familiar with Craig's work (debates), you would know that Craig is king of the rebuttals, in fact, that is one of his best qualities as a debater.

He will rebut what his opponent said about his positive case for theism, and also rebut whatever point his opponent made for their negative position for atheism.
That seems the reason why our friend We_Are_VENOM wont stop to insist that unbelievers shouldnt comment the bible.
Syllogism test.

1. Christian apologists avoid the rebuttals of their opponents like the plague.

2. That seems to be the reason why WaV wont stop to insist that unbelievers shouldn't comment on the Bible.

Non sequitur. Fallacious reasoning.

Aristotle resurrected...but when I showed him this kind of reasoning, he died again.
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Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #24

Post by TRANSPONDER »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:20 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:58 am It seems a common method of christian apologists to avoid their debaters rebuttals like plague where possible 'cause they dont think themselves capable of rebutting them again.
Nonsense...so basically, you provided a quote from Carrier regarding his own opinion (excuses) about a debate of which he was destroyed in?

Gotcha.

I guess all I have to do is pull up a quote from Craig about how he demolished Carrier, and the two quotes will cancel each other out.

C'mon now.

Second, if you actually watched the debate and are also familiar with Craig's work (debates), you would know that Craig is king of the rebuttals, in fact, that is one of his best qualities as a debater.

He will rebut what his opponent said about his positive case for theism, and also rebut whatever point his opponent made for their negative position for atheism.
That seems the reason why our friend We_Are_VENOM wont stop to insist that unbelievers shouldnt comment the bible.
Syllogism test.

1. Christian apologists avoid the rebuttals of their opponents like the plague.

2. That seems to be the reason why WaV wont stop to insist that unbelievers shouldn't comment on the Bible.

Non sequitur. Fallacious reasoning.

Aristotle resurrected...but when I showed him this kind of reasoning, he died again.
That's not a syllogism, nor even a test made to look like one. If anything it's an inverted accusation of Bias made to serve as a strawman attack on Bible -critics.

C'mon, now, you can de better. I've seen you make some really valid arguments, though they didn't in the end really stand up.

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Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #25

Post by The Nice Centurion »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:20 am I guess all I have to do is pull up a quote from Craig about how he demolished Carrier, and the two quotes will cancel each other out.

C'mon now.
So why do you restain from pulling up a quote from Craig about how he demolished Carrier?
Perhaps because there is none?

See?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:20 am Second, if you actually watched the debate and are also familiar with Craig's work (debates), you would know that Craig is king of the rebuttals, in fact, that is one of his best qualities as a debater.
Some King, who counts on the clock to run out and spare him from having to give a rebuttal!
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:20 am He will rebut what his opponent said about his positive case for theism, and also rebut whatever point his opponent made for their negative position for atheism.
If thats true, he must be easy to defeat!
One must just say about his positive case for theism that one agrees with every word Craig said.
According to you, Craig will automatically rebut this and therefore rebut himself. Oh, dear.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #26

Post by Tcg »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:25 am
So why do you restain from pulling up a quote from Craig about how he demolished Carrier?
Perhaps because there is none?
What value would it provide even if there were one? Who could be less credible in determining who won a debate than one who was in the debate? We see the same thing in debates here. A poster declares themselves the victor based on their assessment of the debate. Could there be a more useless declaration?


Tcg
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Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #27

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Tcg wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 4:28 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:25 am
So why do you restain from pulling up a quote from Craig about how he demolished Carrier?
Perhaps because there is none?
What value would it provide even if there were one? Who could be less credible in determining who won a debate than one who was in the debate? We see the same thing in debates here. A poster declares themselves the victor based on their assessment of the debate. Could there be a more useless declaration?


Tcg
I want to hear it none the less!

Carrier doesnt declare himself winner. He says Craig used the clock against him.
If a Craigist can quote Craig how he won accordimg to his own words we should hear it.

From debating christians i got allergic to the :" I could bring the evidence, but . . (and then silence) . . . !" argument!
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #28

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:25 am So why do you restain from pulling up a quote from Craig about how he demolished Carrier?
Perhaps because there is none?

See?
I didn't say I had such a quote, did I?

It was a hypothetical meant to demonstrate how a quote from Carrier (the demolishe'E) means NOTHING.
Some King, who counts on the clock to run out and spare him from having to give a rebuttal!
Carrier's arguments were rebutted.
If thats true, he must be easy to defeat!
One must just say about his positive case for theism that one agrees with every word Craig said.
According to you, Craig will automatically rebut this and therefore rebut himself. Oh, dear.
?
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Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #29

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

.

*Fat fingers on the thanks tip*

*Venom giveth, Venom taketh away*
The Nice Centurion wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:16 am Carrier doesnt declare himself winner. He says Craig used the clock against him.
Used the clock against him?

Each debater had the same amount of time to make their case.

Craig is just better at time management, while Carrier is poor at it.

Nothing more, nothing less.
If a Craigist can quote Craig how he won accordimg to his own words we should hear it.
But since no one made that claim, there is nothing to hear.
From debating christians i got allergic to the :" I could bring the evidence, but . . (and then silence) . . . !" argument!
I get allergic to the "I do not believe in the Bible, but yet I still concern myself with Biblical doctrine, according to what the Bible says".
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Re: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once!

Post #30

Post by The Nice Centurion »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:56 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:25 am So why do you restain from pulling up a quote from Craig about how he demolished Carrier?
Perhaps because there is none?

See?
I didn't say I had such a quote, did I?

It was a hypothetical meant to demonstrate how a quote from Carrier (the demolishe'E) means NOTHING.
So you have no quote! I knew it! You have no quote at all! Christian evidence. Never there when someone calls for it.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:56 am
Some King, who counts on the clock to run out and spare him from having to give a rebuttal!
Carrier's arguments were rebutted.
Says you!
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:56 am
If thats true, he must be easy to defeat!
One must just say about his positive case for theism that one agrees with every word Craig said.
According to you, Craig will automatically rebut this and therefore rebut himself. Oh, dear.
?
!
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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