Why does this exist?

[Inquirer]

Is there a difference between this and random notes, random tempo, random pauses - if so, then to what can we attribute these differences?

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #1]

Is there a difference between this and random notes, random tempo, random pauses - if so, then to what can we attribute these differences?

To the same thing we can attribute words and sentences from random sequences of letters, a house from a random pile of 2x4's or a beaver dam from a randomly distributed brush and twigs ... a creature with some intelligence has organized things based on its knowledge and learned skills.

I'd ask what's the point of such an obvious question, but my guess is that you want to suggest that evolution alone could not have created the diversity of life on Earth without some intelligent creator behind it all, similar to how an intelligent human is needed to create the piano piece. Right? But since natural selection is not random maybe there is some other point you're trying to make?

[Inquirer]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #1]

Is there a difference between this and random notes, random tempo, random pauses - if so, then to what can we attribute these differences?

To the same thing we can attribute words and sentences from random sequences of letters, a house from a random pile of 2x4's or a beaver dam from a randomly distributed brush and twigs ... a creature with some intelligence has organized things based on its knowledge and learned skills.

I'd ask what's the point of such an obvious question, but my guess is that you want to suggest that evolution alone could not have created the diversity of life on Earth without some intelligent creator behind it all, similar to how an intelligent human is needed to create the piano piece. Right? But since natural selection is not random maybe there is some other point you're trying to make?

No, I asked Is there a difference between this and random notes, random tempo, random pauses? and then I asked if so, then to what can we attribute these differences?

The first question has either yes or no as the answer, so lets start with that.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #3]

The first question has either yes or no as the answer, so lets start with that.

The answer is obviously yes, and I commented on the second part as well (to what can we attribute the difference). Is that all this OP is about?

[Inquirer]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #3]

The first question has either yes or no as the answer, so lets start with that.

The answer is obviously yes, and I commented on the second part as well (to what can we attribute the difference). Is that all this OP is about?

I see, very well. So there's no way this could take place without intelligence, yes? that's a necessary part of the process?

So intelligence is necessary for music but unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence, yes? is that true in your opinion?

[Jose Fly]

Is there a difference between this and random notes, random tempo, random pauses

Yes.

if so, then to what can we attribute these differences?

Homo sapiens having the traits necessary to make music and musical instruments (e.g., opposable thumbs, stereoscopic vision, capacity for abstract thought).

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #5]

I see, very well. So there's no way this could take place without intelligence, yes? that's a necessary part of the process?

For the music you linked ... yes.

So intelligence is necessary for music but unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence, yes? is that true in your opinion?

I can't make any sense of that. Unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence? I can only assume from past posts that you are suggesting that evolution is an unintelligent process as far as its mechanisms, and anyone who believes it could result in intelligence must believe that "unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence." Brains evolved from much simpler nerve bundles (ganglia) and control many bodily functions that don't necessarily require intelligence (hind brain functions) or us thinking to make them happen, but they also eventually reached a level of complexity and function that we call intelligence.

Worms have some level of intelligence, as do all of the animals with brains including humans. The fact that humans are far more intelligent that any other animals is just a matter of degree ... a more complex and capable brain. There is no reason to believe that some higher intelligent power (eg. a god) had anything to do with it, or that humans are special. The evolution of brains does not require any such entity ... evolution is perfectly capable of brain development as we can clearly see in nature from worms to humans and everything in between. So if you want to call evolution unintelligent, then indeed unintelligence would be sufficient for intelligence with that definition.

[Inquirer]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #5]

I see, very well. So there's no way this could take place without intelligence, yes? that's a necessary part of the process?

For the music you linked ... yes.

So intelligence is necessary for music but unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence, yes? is that true in your opinion?

I can't make any sense of that. Unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence? I can only assume from past posts that you are suggesting that evolution is an unintelligent process as far as its mechanisms, and anyone who believes it could result in intelligence must believe that "unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence." Brains evolved from much simpler nerve bundles (ganglia) and control many bodily functions that don't necessarily require intelligence (hind brain functions) or us thinking to make them happen, but they also eventually reached a level of complexity and function that we call intelligence.

Worms have some level of intelligence, as do all of the animals with brains including humans. The fact that humans are far more intelligent that any other animals is just a matter of degree ... a more complex and capable brain. There is no reason to believe that some higher intelligent power (eg. a god) had anything to do with it, or that humans are special. The evolution of brains does not require any such entity ... evolution is perfectly capable of brain development as we can clearly see in nature from worms to humans and everything in between. So if you want to call evolution unintelligent, then indeed unintelligence would be sufficient for intelligence with that definition.

Would you argue that a mass of fundamental particles and forces of electricity and gravitation possess intelligence? I think not. Yet we are told that from this, intelligence "emerged". Unintelligence can generate intelligence (it is claimed).

Can you give me an example of worm intelligence? how does one infer the presence of intelligence in worms?

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #8]

Would you argue that a mass of fundamental particles and forces of electricity and gravitation possess intelligence? I think not. Yet we are told that from this, intelligence "emerged". Unintelligence can generate intelligence (it is claimed).

A brain is a mass of fundamental particles, forces of electricity, fundamental particles arranged into atoms which combine to form molecules, neurons, enzymes, signalling proteins, memory elements, etc. etc. This system is organized in such a way that it functions as brains do ... intelligence, consciousness, emotions, and all the rest. And brains have evolved over time from those in a simple worm or other animal, to mammals and humans, along the way becoming more complex with more functions and greater intelligence. My dog is intellegent in that he thinks, makes decisions, etc., but I can beat him at chess.

Can you give me an example of worm intelligence? how does one infer the presence of intelligence in worms?

Let's see what your favorite evolutionist thought about this:

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/na ... earthworms

[Inquirer]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #8]

Would you argue that a mass of fundamental particles and forces of electricity and gravitation possess intelligence? I think not. Yet we are told that from this, intelligence "emerged". Unintelligence can generate intelligence (it is claimed).

A brain is a mass of fundamental particles, forces of electricity, fundamental particles arranged into atoms which combine to form molecules, neurons, enzymes, signalling proteins, memory elements, etc. etc. This system is organized in such a way that it functions as brains do ... intelligence, consciousness, emotions, and all the rest. And brains have evolved over time from those in a simple worm or other animal, to mammals and humans, along the way becoming more complex with more functions and greater intelligence. My dog is intellegent in that he thinks, makes decisions, etc., but I can beat him at chess.

Can you give me an example of worm intelligence? how does one infer the presence of intelligence in worms?

Let's see what your favorite evolutionist thought about this:

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/na ... earthworms

Thanks, that is a very interesting article, reading it now, very thought provoking.

Speaking of man being the supreme intelligence, this came to mind: