Is there a difference between this and random notes, random tempo, random pauses - if so, then to what can we attribute these differences?
Why does this exist?
Moderator: Moderators
- DrNoGods
- Prodigy
- Posts: 2716
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
- Location: Nevada
- Has thanked: 593 times
- Been thanked: 1642 times
Re: Why does this exist?
Post #2[Replying to Inquirer in post #1]
I'd ask what's the point of such an obvious question, but my guess is that you want to suggest that evolution alone could not have created the diversity of life on Earth without some intelligent creator behind it all, similar to how an intelligent human is needed to create the piano piece. Right? But since natural selection is not random maybe there is some other point you're trying to make?
To the same thing we can attribute words and sentences from random sequences of letters, a house from a random pile of 2x4's or a beaver dam from a randomly distributed brush and twigs ... a creature with some intelligence has organized things based on its knowledge and learned skills.Is there a difference between this and random notes, random tempo, random pauses - if so, then to what can we attribute these differences?
I'd ask what's the point of such an obvious question, but my guess is that you want to suggest that evolution alone could not have created the diversity of life on Earth without some intelligent creator behind it all, similar to how an intelligent human is needed to create the piano piece. Right? But since natural selection is not random maybe there is some other point you're trying to make?
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
- Inquirer
- Banned
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 6:03 pm
- Has thanked: 23 times
- Been thanked: 30 times
Re: Why does this exist?
Post #3No, I asked Is there a difference between this and random notes, random tempo, random pauses? and then I asked if so, then to what can we attribute these differences?DrNoGods wrote: ↑Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:50 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #1]
To the same thing we can attribute words and sentences from random sequences of letters, a house from a random pile of 2x4's or a beaver dam from a randomly distributed brush and twigs ... a creature with some intelligence has organized things based on its knowledge and learned skills.Is there a difference between this and random notes, random tempo, random pauses - if so, then to what can we attribute these differences?
I'd ask what's the point of such an obvious question, but my guess is that you want to suggest that evolution alone could not have created the diversity of life on Earth without some intelligent creator behind it all, similar to how an intelligent human is needed to create the piano piece. Right? But since natural selection is not random maybe there is some other point you're trying to make?
The first question has either yes or no as the answer, so lets start with that.
- DrNoGods
- Prodigy
- Posts: 2716
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
- Location: Nevada
- Has thanked: 593 times
- Been thanked: 1642 times
Re: Why does this exist?
Post #4[Replying to Inquirer in post #3]
The answer is obviously yes, and I commented on the second part as well (to what can we attribute the difference). Is that all this OP is about?The first question has either yes or no as the answer, so lets start with that.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
- Inquirer
- Banned
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 6:03 pm
- Has thanked: 23 times
- Been thanked: 30 times
Re: Why does this exist?
Post #5I see, very well. So there's no way this could take place without intelligence, yes? that's a necessary part of the process?DrNoGods wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:07 am [Replying to Inquirer in post #3]
The answer is obviously yes, and I commented on the second part as well (to what can we attribute the difference). Is that all this OP is about?The first question has either yes or no as the answer, so lets start with that.
So intelligence is necessary for music but unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence, yes? is that true in your opinion?
- Jose Fly
- Guru
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
- Location: Out west somewhere
- Has thanked: 337 times
- Been thanked: 906 times
Re: Why does this exist?
Post #6Yes.
Homo sapiens having the traits necessary to make music and musical instruments (e.g., opposable thumbs, stereoscopic vision, capacity for abstract thought).if so, then to what can we attribute these differences?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.
- DrNoGods
- Prodigy
- Posts: 2716
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
- Location: Nevada
- Has thanked: 593 times
- Been thanked: 1642 times
Re: Why does this exist?
Post #7[Replying to Inquirer in post #5]
Worms have some level of intelligence, as do all of the animals with brains including humans. The fact that humans are far more intelligent that any other animals is just a matter of degree ... a more complex and capable brain. There is no reason to believe that some higher intelligent power (eg. a god) had anything to do with it, or that humans are special. The evolution of brains does not require any such entity ... evolution is perfectly capable of brain development as we can clearly see in nature from worms to humans and everything in between. So if you want to call evolution unintelligent, then indeed unintelligence would be sufficient for intelligence with that definition.
For the music you linked ... yes.I see, very well. So there's no way this could take place without intelligence, yes? that's a necessary part of the process?
I can't make any sense of that. Unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence? I can only assume from past posts that you are suggesting that evolution is an unintelligent process as far as its mechanisms, and anyone who believes it could result in intelligence must believe that "unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence." Brains evolved from much simpler nerve bundles (ganglia) and control many bodily functions that don't necessarily require intelligence (hind brain functions) or us thinking to make them happen, but they also eventually reached a level of complexity and function that we call intelligence.So intelligence is necessary for music but unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence, yes? is that true in your opinion?
Worms have some level of intelligence, as do all of the animals with brains including humans. The fact that humans are far more intelligent that any other animals is just a matter of degree ... a more complex and capable brain. There is no reason to believe that some higher intelligent power (eg. a god) had anything to do with it, or that humans are special. The evolution of brains does not require any such entity ... evolution is perfectly capable of brain development as we can clearly see in nature from worms to humans and everything in between. So if you want to call evolution unintelligent, then indeed unintelligence would be sufficient for intelligence with that definition.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
- Inquirer
- Banned
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 6:03 pm
- Has thanked: 23 times
- Been thanked: 30 times
Re: Why does this exist?
Post #8Would you argue that a mass of fundamental particles and forces of electricity and gravitation possess intelligence? I think not. Yet we are told that from this, intelligence "emerged". Unintelligence can generate intelligence (it is claimed).DrNoGods wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:51 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #5]
For the music you linked ... yes.I see, very well. So there's no way this could take place without intelligence, yes? that's a necessary part of the process?
I can't make any sense of that. Unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence? I can only assume from past posts that you are suggesting that evolution is an unintelligent process as far as its mechanisms, and anyone who believes it could result in intelligence must believe that "unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence." Brains evolved from much simpler nerve bundles (ganglia) and control many bodily functions that don't necessarily require intelligence (hind brain functions) or us thinking to make them happen, but they also eventually reached a level of complexity and function that we call intelligence.So intelligence is necessary for music but unintelligence is sufficient for intelligence, yes? is that true in your opinion?
Worms have some level of intelligence, as do all of the animals with brains including humans. The fact that humans are far more intelligent that any other animals is just a matter of degree ... a more complex and capable brain. There is no reason to believe that some higher intelligent power (eg. a god) had anything to do with it, or that humans are special. The evolution of brains does not require any such entity ... evolution is perfectly capable of brain development as we can clearly see in nature from worms to humans and everything in between. So if you want to call evolution unintelligent, then indeed unintelligence would be sufficient for intelligence with that definition.
Can you give me an example of worm intelligence? how does one infer the presence of intelligence in worms?
- DrNoGods
- Prodigy
- Posts: 2716
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
- Location: Nevada
- Has thanked: 593 times
- Been thanked: 1642 times
Re: Why does this exist?
Post #9[Replying to Inquirer in post #8]
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/na ... earthworms
A brain is a mass of fundamental particles, forces of electricity, fundamental particles arranged into atoms which combine to form molecules, neurons, enzymes, signalling proteins, memory elements, etc. etc. This system is organized in such a way that it functions as brains do ... intelligence, consciousness, emotions, and all the rest. And brains have evolved over time from those in a simple worm or other animal, to mammals and humans, along the way becoming more complex with more functions and greater intelligence. My dog is intellegent in that he thinks, makes decisions, etc., but I can beat him at chess.Would you argue that a mass of fundamental particles and forces of electricity and gravitation possess intelligence? I think not. Yet we are told that from this, intelligence "emerged". Unintelligence can generate intelligence (it is claimed).
Let's see what your favorite evolutionist thought about this:Can you give me an example of worm intelligence? how does one infer the presence of intelligence in worms?
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/na ... earthworms
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
- Inquirer
- Banned
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 6:03 pm
- Has thanked: 23 times
- Been thanked: 30 times
Re: Why does this exist?
Post #10Thanks, that is a very interesting article, reading it now, very thought provoking.DrNoGods wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:22 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #8]
A brain is a mass of fundamental particles, forces of electricity, fundamental particles arranged into atoms which combine to form molecules, neurons, enzymes, signalling proteins, memory elements, etc. etc. This system is organized in such a way that it functions as brains do ... intelligence, consciousness, emotions, and all the rest. And brains have evolved over time from those in a simple worm or other animal, to mammals and humans, along the way becoming more complex with more functions and greater intelligence. My dog is intellegent in that he thinks, makes decisions, etc., but I can beat him at chess.Would you argue that a mass of fundamental particles and forces of electricity and gravitation possess intelligence? I think not. Yet we are told that from this, intelligence "emerged". Unintelligence can generate intelligence (it is claimed).
Let's see what your favorite evolutionist thought about this:Can you give me an example of worm intelligence? how does one infer the presence of intelligence in worms?
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/na ... earthworms
Speaking of man being the supreme intelligence, this came to mind: