.
I say yes.
This thread was created in order to discuss/debate what is called the argument from design (teleological argument), which is a classical argument for the existence of God.
For more on what fine tuning is as it pertains to the argument, please read this wikipedia article..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe
Now, it is well known and established in science, that the constants and values which govern our universe is mathematically precise.
How precise?
Well, please see this article by Dr. Hugh Ross...
https://wng.org/roundups/a-fine-tuned-u ... 1617224984
Excerpt...
"More than a hundred different parameters for the universe must have values falling within narrowly defined ranges for physical life of any conceivable kind to exist." (see above article for list of parameters).
Or..(in wiki article above, on fine tuning)..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tune ... e#Examples
When you read the articles, you will find that there isn't much room for error.
If you start with a highly chaotic, random, disordered big bang, the odds are astronomically AGAINST the manifestation of sentient, human life.
How disordered was the big bang at the onset of the expansion...well, physicist Roger Penrose calculated that the chances of life originating via random chance, was 1 chance in 10^10^123 ( The Emperor’s New Mind, pg. 341-344.....according to..
https://mathscholar.org/2017/04/is-the- ... 20universe.
That is a double exponent with 123 as the double!!
The only way to account for the fine tuning of our universe..there are only 3 possibilities..
1. Random chance: Well, we just addressed this option..and to say not likely is the biggest understatement in the history of understatements.
If you have 1 chance in 10^10^123 to accomplish something, it is safe to say IT AIN'T HAPPENING.
2. Necessity: This option is a no-go..because the constants and parameters could have been any values..in other words, it wasn't necessary for the parameters to have those specific values at the onset of the big bang.
3. Design: Bingo. First off, since the first two options are negated, then #3 wins by default...and no explanation is even needed, as it logically follows that #3 wins (whether we like it or not). However, I will provide a little insight.
You see, the constants and values which govern our universe had to have been set, as an INITIAL CONDITION of the big bang. By "set", I mean selectively chosen.
It is impossible for mother nature to have pre-selected anything, because nature is exactly what came in to being at the moment of the big bang.
So, not only (if intelligent design is negated) do we have a singularity sitting around for eons and expanding for reasons which cannot be determined (which is part of the absurdity), but we also have this singularity expanding with very low entropy (10^10^!23), which completely defies everything we know about entropy, to a degree which has never been duplicated since.
So, we have a positive reasons to believe in intelligent design...an intelligent design...a Cosmic Creator/Engineer...
We have positive reasons to believe in a God of the universe.
In closing...
1. No need to downplay fine tuning, because in the wiki article, you will see the fact that scientists are scrambling to try to find an explanation for fine tuning..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tune ... planations
If there was no fine tuning, then you wouldn't need offer any explanations to explain it away, now would you?
2. Unless you can provide a fourth option to the above three options, then please spare me the "but there may be more options" stuff.
If that is what you believe, then tell me what they are, and I will gladly ADD THEM TO THE LIST AND EXPLAIN WHY THEY ALSO FAIL.
3. 10^10^123. Ouch.
Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #281FYIJoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:38 pmI propose that if your statement had it any substance, responses to it might need more of it.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:53 amYour post lacks substance, as usual.brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:00 amAssumes facts not in evidence. Please demonstrate that the constants and parameters could have been any values. So far, that is an unsupported assumption.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:19 pm 2. Necessity: This option is a no-go..because the constants and parameters could have been any values..in other words, it wasn't necessary for the parameters to have those specific values at the onset of the big bang.
Just the same ole atheistic "You have no evidence" 2-5 sentence quip.
If your argument can be so solidly refuted in a "2-5 sentence quip", that right there indicates the weakness of your argument.
Might as well, you've got no other argument than to be upset at how your argument was defeated by means you consider beneath their dignity.Smh.
Whether it "had to be here", or not, is not dependent on invisible sky daddies.Anyways, the entire universe is contingent, it had a beginning..it didnt have to be here.
"If" is a poor means of establishing truth.If the universe is contingent, then the laws which govern it also must also be contingent.
As above, "had to", or not, doesn't require invisible beings to be the cause.Life did not have to be here...and if life did not have to be here, then life isn't metaphysically necessary..which is the main/only point of option #2.
LolAnd btw, I am certainly not going to debate the finitude of the universe, not with you.
Why not? Because history has shown that you are either unwilling or incapable of having an in depth conversation about these subjects.
Give me a hundred on brunumb.
You might do better to argue the words, and not the how many of em.I may have such discussions with someone else, and I predict you will peek your head in the discussion for an occasional typical 4 sentence paragraph.
I won't deb8 u coZ yUo don't Ddeb8 iN a WAY that Brings me comfort!That is all you've done thus far during my tenure on this forum, and I don't expect anything different.
It's incredible the amount, and variicity of theist excuses to avoid debate on a debate site.
I already addressed this (predicted it) in the latter part of the OP.brunumb wrote: The same goes for fine-tuning itself. We don't even know that any sort of tuning was involved since we don't have any deep knowledge of the actual process involved in the formation of the universe.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #282[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1]
I see a couple problems here.
1. At best you show that our universe is fine-tuned for life in general. You haven't shown it is fine-tuned for human life.
2. You are presenting a false dilemma because you are only putting up 3 possibilities when in fact there are many more. You probably haven't looked much into philosophy.
For example, there are godless forms of panpsychism that explain fine-tuning.
I see a couple problems here.
1. At best you show that our universe is fine-tuned for life in general. You haven't shown it is fine-tuned for human life.
2. You are presenting a false dilemma because you are only putting up 3 possibilities when in fact there are many more. You probably haven't looked much into philosophy.
For example, there are godless forms of panpsychism that explain fine-tuning.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #283If the universe wasn't fine tuned for human life, then there would be no human life, would there?AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:00 am [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1]
I see a couple problems here.
1. At best you show that our universe is fine-tuned for life in general. You haven't shown it is fine-tuned for human life.
Well when you name those many more possibilities, then I will add them to the list.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:00 am 2. You are presenting a false dilemma because you are only putting up 3 possibilities when in fact there are many more. You probably haven't looked much into philosophy.
Fine tuning is needed for any given natural phenomena.For example, there are godless forms of panpsychism that explain fine-tuning.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #284[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #283]
If the universe is fine-tuned for life in general, then Humans could come to be because they are alive, and so could aliens, etc. To say the universe is fine-tuned for human life is to claim that it was designed specially for humans. It could be specially designed for humans, but we cannot know that from fine-tunning alone.
Panpsychism is not a natural phenomenon. It is the idea that consciousness is a thing that exist in reality. It is its own property. We have material properties and we have conscious properties. Conscious properties could very well explain fine-tuning if they are active participants in the world.
Then of course we have the view that the fine tunning is caused by gods.
Then we have the view that fine-tuning is caused by aliens who originated in another universe and caused this one via technologies.
Then we have the view that fine-tuning is caused by retro causality, where the past caused the future as much as the future causes the past, such as in Klee Irwins Self Simulating Universe.
Then we have the idea that the fine-tuning is caused by us humans. We became advanced enough in the real world to create an artificial world, a simulation, which we are living in. The real world is not fine-tuned at all.
There are more views, but I think that is enough to show that there are more views that need to be ruled out.
If the universe is fine-tuned for life in general, then Humans could come to be because they are alive, and so could aliens, etc. To say the universe is fine-tuned for human life is to claim that it was designed specially for humans. It could be specially designed for humans, but we cannot know that from fine-tunning alone.
Panpsychism is not a natural phenomenon. It is the idea that consciousness is a thing that exist in reality. It is its own property. We have material properties and we have conscious properties. Conscious properties could very well explain fine-tuning if they are active participants in the world.
Then of course we have the view that the fine tunning is caused by gods.
Then we have the view that fine-tuning is caused by aliens who originated in another universe and caused this one via technologies.
Then we have the view that fine-tuning is caused by retro causality, where the past caused the future as much as the future causes the past, such as in Klee Irwins Self Simulating Universe.
Then we have the idea that the fine-tuning is caused by us humans. We became advanced enough in the real world to create an artificial world, a simulation, which we are living in. The real world is not fine-tuned at all.
There are more views, but I think that is enough to show that there are more views that need to be ruled out.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #285The existence of human life does not mean that the universe was fine tuned for it.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:49 am If the universe wasn't fine tuned for human life, then there would be no human life, would there?
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Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #286I understand that people who think like you don't like the "fine tuning" label, because of the intelligent design connotation that comes along with it.brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:26 pmThe existence of human life does not mean that the universe was fine tuned for it.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:49 am If the universe wasn't fine tuned for human life, then there would be no human life, would there?
Ok, how about this...let me rephrase it..
"If the naturalistic conditions required for human life were not met, then there would be no human life now, would there be?"
How about that? Is that better for you?
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #287So what? That still doesn't mean that the conditions were specially formulated with human life as a goal.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:52 pmI understand that people who think like you don't like the "fine tuning" label, because of the intelligent design connotation that comes along with it.brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:26 pmThe existence of human life does not mean that the universe was fine tuned for it.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:49 am If the universe wasn't fine tuned for human life, then there would be no human life, would there?
Ok, how about this...let me rephrase it..
"If the naturalistic conditions required for human life were not met, then there would be no human life now, would there be?"
How about that? Is that better for you?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #288Well, that is your one-sentenced opinion, which can't hold a candle to the entire case I made which proves otherwise.
So, unless you have anything of substance to add, we will just have to agree to disagree and keep it moving.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #289You made no case so a one sentence refutation of what you said was all it deserved.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 5:41 amWell, that is your one-sentenced opinion, which can't hold a candle to the entire case I made which proves otherwise.
So, unless you have anything of substance to add, we will just have to agree to disagree and keep it moving.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #290Ok. So it got what it "deserved".
Moving along.
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