DISPENSATIONALISM IS AN UNBIBLICAL DOCTRINE

[Eddie Ramos]

Dispensationalism is a word which describes that God had a different plan of salvation for the people on the Old Testament side of the cross than he did for the people on the New Testament side of the cross. For example it is believed by many that from the time of the fall of Adam and Eve, that people were saved by their good works (obedience to God's law, the Bible), then after the cross, obedience to the law of God was no longer necessary for salvation. That is, after the cross, one only had to believe in Jesus in order to be saved.

To demonstrate this doctrine, I copied and pasted a comment in a thread I found in this forum which said, "Good works earned one salvation under the Old Testament. That is, if a person never violated any of God's laws, he or she gained eternal life..... Under the New Testament, man came under grace and not the demands of the law.".

I will debate the side that states that there was only ever one way for God's elect to become saved throughout the history of the world. It was always by grace through the faith of Christ. As my opening support, I would like to put forth this passage:

Genesis 6:6–9 (KJV 1900)
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Here we are told that the whole world was corrupt, yet Noah found grace in God's eyes. The word grace is the word "favor". Noah found favor in God's eyes. Noah did not find grace because of his good works, else grace is no more grace (Rom 11:6). God describing Noah as just and perfect, isn't describing what Noah had earned as a result of his good works, because the Old Testament clearly tells us that:

....there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Ecclesiastes 7:20 (KJV 1900)

AND,

If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; 1 Kings 8:46 (KJV 1900)

So, when God describes someone as being perfect and just, it's because God is looking at the heart (1 Sam 16:7). A perfect heart which could only come as a result of having been saved by God's grace. This is why good works could never have earned anyone salvation before the cross. Else not a single person could have become saved prior to the cross because all have sinned.

Psalm 14:2–3 (KJV 1900)
2  The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3  They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
There is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The initial question for this debate is, what are the biblical texts used to support the doctrine of dispensationalism?

[JehovahsWitness]

The Bible teaches us that spiritual pictures are like snapshots ...

Okay so can you answer the questons?

...the spiritual picture paints the recipient of the sacrifice as God in heaven...

• How can the High Priest represent Almighty God (YHWH) when he acted as a mediator between the people and Almighty God (YHWH) ?

• Provide an example in scripture when the meditor is also the object of the mediation.

• Without being circular , where in scripture is Almighty God (YHWH) represented as a sacrifice (rather than the recipient of a sacrifice)?

[myth-one.com]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

I do not see any difference noted between corrupted or uncorrupted flesh -- just flesh.

That's because you are neglecting the death and resurrection of the soul. John 3:6 is not speaking of our incorruptible bodies, but of our born again soul. Our dead soul is born of the Spirit of God and when we are born again, our flesh profits nothing from it because our flesh is still under the corruption of sin. At least until we receive our new immortal bodies.

Definition of soul: the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.

Can I assume that the following summary reflects your Christian religious beliefs?

All mankind is born as an immortal soul living within a physical human body. So the real you -- the part of you that thinks, has feelings, dreams, aspires, has emotions, the personality, the ego, etc - will never die. Your soul will live eternally in one of two places -- heaven or hell. If you are not a Christian and you have never been born again of the Spirit, then your soul goes immediately to a place Jesus called hades, where you will await the judgment of God. The moment a Christian dies, his soul goes immediately to Heaven, and awaits the resurrection -- when the soul and body will be rejoined eternally.

Is that basically correct? If not, can you modify it in a reply, and try to keep it a short working document?

Thanks in advance.

[Eddie Ramos]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

I do not see any difference noted between corrupted or uncorrupted flesh -- just flesh.

That's because you are neglecting the death and resurrection of the soul. John 3:6 is not speaking of our incorruptible bodies, but of our born again soul. Our dead soul is born of the Spirit of God and when we are born again, our flesh profits nothing from it because our flesh is still under the corruption of sin. At least until we receive our new immortal bodies.

Definition of soul: the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.

Can I assume that the following summary reflects your Christian religious beliefs?

All mankind is born as an immortal soul living within a physical human body. So the real you -- the part of you that thinks, has feelings, dreams, aspires, has emotions, the personality, the ego, etc - will never die. Your soul will live eternally in one of two places -- heaven or hell. If you are not a Christian and you have never been born again of the Spirit, then your soul goes immediately to a place Jesus called hades, where you will await the judgment of God. The moment a Christian dies, his soul goes immediately to Heaven, and awaits the resurrection -- when the soul and body will be rejoined eternally.

Is that basically correct? If not, can you modify it in a reply, and try to keep it a short working document?

Thanks in advance.

Where did you learn that using a dictionary was the way to define a biblical word? Is it because that's how everyone defines words they don't understand? Well, that's been the problem all along, the way you approach God's Holy Word. This is not a regular book, it's a spiritual book. This is not a book that can be "figured out" or defined by the logical man. This book requires the Holy Spirit to fully understand.

That which is born of the Spirit is talking about the Holy Spirit which indwells everyone that has been born again.

John 14:17 (KJV) 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be IN you.

And this was fulfilled in the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit indwelt about 3,000 people.

The Bible itself is it's own dictionary and it's own commentary. The Bible teaches us that when God created Adam, that Adam was not a living body until God breathed into Adam the breath of lives. This plural word "lives" is speaking about mankind"s two lives. His breath which keeps his physical body alive and his living soul which was inside of Adam (mankind).

Mankind had two types of life, physical and spiritual. Then God warns Adam that the day he disobeyed he would surely die.

Was God wrong because Adam didn't die physically the day he sinned? No, God never specified how Adam would die, he only guaranteed his death the very day he would sin. And as we search the scriptures, we find out that the death God was speaking of was Adam's spiritual death, the death of his soul.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV) 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Adam and Eve's soul died the day they sinned. Now they only had a body with physical life left. If they died without God forgiving their sins and saving them, then Adam and Eve ceased to exist upon their death. But we don't know what happened to their spiritual condition before they died.

The soul therefore is not immortal like many believe. It is what died within mankind. This is the death that all mankind was appointed to and no one that is conceived the natural way is exempt.

The moment a true child of God (which is different than a Christian) dies, he is present with the Lord because his soul was born again, it was brought back to everlasting life, never able to sin again and therfore never able to die, because this time it was born (not created) of the seed of the Word of God.

Those who are unsaved, still have a dead soul within their physical body, and when they physically die, then the breath of their physical life returns to God who gave it, but they go into the grave/hell and are dead forevermore.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (breath) shall return unto God who gave it.

I'm not sure where you got the article about "the real you never dying", but that's why we can't just copy anything we find on the internet. It's always best to do your own work in the scriptures than to depend on others as your source of "truth".

[myth-one.com]

If you claim to understand what a "soul" is, perhaps you could define it.

Do the other animals have living souls?

That which is born of the Spirit is talking about the Holy Spirit which indwells everyone that has been born again.

Nope, that which is born of the Spirit is a spirit:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

The Bible itself is it's own dictionary and it's own commentary. The Bible teaches us that when God created Adam, that Adam was not a living body until God breathed into Adam the breath of lives. This plural word "lives" is speaking about mankind"s two lives. His breath which keeps his physical body alive and his living soul which was inside of Adam (mankind).

It's breath of life -- not lives:

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And it's the same breath of life which is in every animal:

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

[Eddie Ramos]

If you claim to understand what a "soul" is, perhaps you could define it.

Do the other animals have living souls?

That which is born of the Spirit is talking about the Holy Spirit which indwells everyone that has been born again.

Nope, that which is born of the Spirit is a spirit:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

The Bible itself is it's own dictionary and it's own commentary. The Bible teaches us that when God created Adam, that Adam was not a living body until God breathed into Adam the breath of lives. This plural word "lives" is speaking about mankind"s two lives. His breath which keeps his physical body alive and his living soul which was inside of Adam (mankind).

It's breath of life -- not lives:

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And it's the same breath of life which is in every animal:

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

First things first. Let's examine the inspired text to see what Genesis 2:7 really says.


Genesis 2:7 (KJV 1900)
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (חַיִּ֑ים); and man became a living soul.

This Hebrew word (חַיִּ֑ים) in this verse is plural. Don't take my word for it, look it up and verify it with an interlinear Bible. Here is the same Hebrew word in its singular form: (חַיָּ֑ה). Here is plural: (חַיִּ֑ים). And the biblical principle of understanding whether something is singular or plural in the Bible is extremely important. God makes that distinction known here.

Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

SO, the original text always helps us confirm or correct any translation of any language we wish to use, because the original text is the only Word of God which is inspired, not any translation.

Genesis 1:20 (KJV 1900)
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (חַיָּ֑ה) (singular), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV 1900)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of lives (חַיִּ֑ים) (plural); and man became a living soul.

There's actually quite a bit more explaining to do to how you God makes a distinction between the breath of humans versus the breath of animals. But because I know you want the short version, the key to understand the difference between the two is the word "breath". When this Hebrew word (רוּחַ) is used, it's used to refer to both, animals and humans, as having this particular breath of lives. For example:

Genesis 6:17 (KJV 1900)
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath (רוּחַ) (Strong's #7307) of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Here we can see that both humans and animals are in view, and they're said to have the same "breath" (רוּחַ) of lives. But this next Hebrew word translated as "breath" (נְשָׁמָה) (Strong's #5397) is an entirely different word. And if you look it up, you'll see that this word is never used to refer to the breath of animals. But only to that of human beings. And here is the first verse where this Hebrew word is used:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV 1900)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (נְשָׁמָה) (Strong's #5397) of life; and man became a living soul.

Now here is something interesting. In Genesis 7:22, God is once again referring to the destruction of all flesh, meaning mankind and animals, like he did in Genesis 6:17. Yet this time, God doesn't use the word "breath" once. He uses it twice and here, he uses both Hebrew words together, to show us that there is indeed a distinction of "breath" between man and beast.

Genesis 7:22 (KJV 1900)
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

This verse is missing an additional word "breath" and is properly translated as: "All in whose nostrils was the breath (רוּחַ) (Strong's #7307) breath (נְשָׁמָה) (Strong's #5397) of lives, of all that was in the dry land, died."

This is how precise God is with his word. We only have to be willing to diligently search out his words. This was man's condition before the fall. He had two types of breaths in him. One that he shared with the rest of the living creatures and one that was given solely to mankind. This second breath is what we refer to as his soul or his spiritual life. Man had his physical life and his spiritual life within him as a perfect creation. But then after the fall, he died, but nor physically. Man died spiritually, their soul died. Now, the breath all of mankind was left with is the same breath as that of the beasts. Which is where your scripture come in.

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

After the fall, mankind no longer had any preeminence above a beast because man's spiritual breath (which animals never had) had died. Now he was just like the beast and left only with his physical life. This is why salvation was so crucial, because it restored man spiritual life. It brought his dead soul back to life.

[myth-one.com]

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul.

This Hebrew word (חַיִּ֑ים) in this verse is plural. Don't take my word for it, look it up and verify it with an interlinear Bible.

I took your advice and looked it up in the interlinear Bible at Biblehub.com, and it is translated as the singular "life." That is, "breath of life."

Are you ever going to give your biblical definition of what a soul is?

[Eddie Ramos]

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul.

This Hebrew word (חַיִּ֑ים) in this verse is plural. Don't take my word for it, look it up and verify it with an interlinear Bible.

I took your advice and looked it up in the interlinear Bible at Biblehub.com, and it is translated as the singular "life." That is, "breath of life."

Are you ever going to give your biblical definition of what a soul is?

I did tell you in my post. I'll copy and paste it: "This second breath is what we refer to as his soul or his spiritual life. Man had his physical life and his spiritual life within him as a perfect creation. But then after the fall, he died, but nor physically. Man died spiritually, their soul died. Now, the breath all of mankind was left with is the same breath as that of the beasts. Which is where your scripture come in."

But you're still trusting in someone else's translation of the Hebrew rather than the Hebrew itself. BibleHub is not a bad tool, but if you go back and look closer, you will see that it is intact a plural word. You will see the letters "N_mp" under the word "life" which stands for "Noun-Masculine-Plural". Then you can verify that by comparing it with all other plural versions of the same word.

If you simply glance at the translated word, then of course everything I said in my previous post will not make sense to you. If someone explains to me how to add a picture to a post via smartphone, I'll be glad to show you.

Once you verify that and compare it with the two different words for "breath" that God gave to each, then perhaps it will make more sense.

[myth-one.com]

I took your advice and looked it up in the interlinear Bible at Biblehub.com, and it is translated as the singular "life." That is, "breath of life."

Also, I cannot find a single Bible translation which uses the plural of life. You are a minority of one.

This second breath is what we refer to as his soul or his spiritual life.

So your mythical "soul" is based upon a "second breath" which cannot be found to exist in any Bible translation.

Is that the best you can do?

We have lungs to maintain breath into our physical lungs. How do we maintain breathing breaths of life into our souls?

[myth-one.com]

I took your advice and looked it up in the interlinear Bible at Biblehub.com, and it is translated as the singular "life." That is, "breath of life."

Also, I cannot find a single Bible translation which uses the plural of life. You are a minority of one.

This second breath is what we refer to as his soul or his spiritual life.

So your mythical "soul" is based upon a "second breath" which cannot be found to exist in any Bible translation.

Is that the best you can do?

We have lungs to maintain breath into our physical lungs. How do we maintain breathing breaths of life into our spiritual souls?

[Eddie Ramos]

I took your advice and looked it up in the interlinear Bible at Biblehub.com, and it is translated as the singular "life." That is, "breath of life."

Also, I cannot find a single Bible translation which uses the plural of life. You are a minority of one.

This second breath is what we refer to as his soul or his spiritual life.

So your mythical "soul" is based upon a "second breath" which cannot be found to exist in any Bible translation.

Is that the best you can do?

We have lungs to maintain breath into our physical lungs. How do we maintain breathing breaths of life into our souls?

So here's what I'm guessing you did. You looked again at Biblehub.com to see if what I said about the word being plural (N-mp) even though the actual translation was written as a singular word. And knowing that what I told you was actually true, that the Hebrew word used in Genesis 2:7 (not the English translated word) is indeed plural and not singular, you decided to look for a way to reject that truth and look for a way out of admitting you were incorrect. So, you looked at other translations to see what they had to say, and lo and behold, they translate is as a singular word, "life".

So, what you have done here is the same thingyou have done in our previousconversations. You have rejected the inspired Word of God (the Hebrew text) and have placed your trust in man by accepting their translation over what God actually said. And the Bible warns us against that also.

Jeremiah 17:5 (KJV) 5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Every translation is written so that it makes as much grammatical sense as possible, and that means that at times, the translators took it upon themselves to change words from plural to singular and vice versa, and even add words, or leave some out. This is why we are to always check and double check every translation we decide to use, comparing it with the only true inspired text in its original language.

And this particular information isn't something that requires the Holy Spirit to be able to check out and confirm. Anyone can do it. So your rejection of this easy to verify information tells me that I'm wasting my time trying to answer your questions from the Bible because all you're really after is being the one who is right, no matter what anyone shows you from the Bible.

So, if you won't even acknowledge that the word "life" in Genesis 2:7 (and many other places) is a plural word in the Hebrew text and should be translated as "lives", then how can you possibly want to move on and try and understand how the Bible explains the soul of man or the difference of "breaths" God speaks of in his word?

But I suspect that you can see that if you do acknowledge that the word "life" is in fact supposed to be plural, then that negatively affects your own doctrine and you will be forced to make correction. And anyone who isn't willing to humble themselves before the Word of God and accept correction, will always be heading in the wrong direction.

[i]2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness[/i]:

Thanks for the chat, but I think I'll save my time for those who are genuinely interested in searching the scriptures and seeking for truth.