Odd morality

[Willum]

You know I find it odd.

The Ancient Greeks recognized the immorality of Zeus; who sent floods, plagues, enacted cruel transformations, etc., and the Greeks responded by labeling Zeus and the other gods immoral.
They further responded by creating a code of morality for people that did not involve deities.

The Greeks saw their gods without morals, and so created their own.

Whereas the Ancient Hebrew and modern day Judaists and Christians see identical or similar acts by their god, and rather then decry these acts as malevolent, defend them as being benevolent.

For debate: The Ancient Greeks were more mature and moral than modern Judaists and Christians.

[brunumb]

PSALM 103:8 - Young's Literal Translation

Merciful and gracious is Jehovah, Slow to anger, and abundant in mercy

Genesis 6:13 - NIV

So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth."

So much for mercy.


Tcg

And if you go back to the beginning when Adam and Eve allegedly caused everything to spiral down the gurgler, not an ounce of mercy in sight. Just imagine how the world might have turned out if God actually was omnibenevolent and merciful.

[brunumb]

I for one am quite pleased that at least some humans' morality is much different than Biblegods. The women's rights movement, the LGBTQ+ rights movement, the anti-slavery movement and many others are but some examples of the beneficial result.

Is the tide turning in the United States with Jehovah's morality starting to rear its ugly head again? Every day one can read reports of pastors and religiously inspired politicians inciting hatred and death threats against gays. Thou shalt not kill apparently doesn't apply to people you hate. Once again we have calls to ban books, particularly those that contain anything gay. Librarians have been threatened to the point of having to quit their jobs. It seems to me that the decline of Christianity is causing a frantic response from the faithful. Much like how fish begin to thrash around as their pond dries out and their survival is threatened. Morals can take a back seat in such circumstances.

[Tcg]

I for one am quite pleased that at least some humans' morality is much different than Biblegods. The women's rights movement, the LGBTQ+ rights movement, the anti-slavery movement and many others are but some examples of the beneficial result.

Is the tide turning in the United States with Jehovah's morality starting to rear its ugly head again? Every day one can read reports of pastors and religiously inspired politicians inciting hatred and death threats against gays. Thou shalt not kill apparently doesn't apply to people you hate. Once again we have calls to ban books, particularly those that contain anything gay. Librarians have been threatened to the point of having to quit their jobs. It seems to me that the decline of Christianity is causing a frantic response from the faithful. Much like how fish begin to thrash around as their pond dries out and their survival is threatened. Morals can take a back seat in such circumstances.

Indeed. It's sad to see some of the advances we have made eroding before our very eyes. I used to think that humans have advanced so much that we could never become barbaric again. Over the last two years or so I have gradually come to realize that I was totally wrong.


Tcg

[Miles]

I for one am quite pleased that at least some humans' morality is much different than Biblegods. The women's rights movement, the LGBTQ+ rights movement, the anti-slavery movement and many others are but some examples of the beneficial result.

Is the tide turning in the United States with Jehovah's morality starting to rear its ugly head again? Every day one can read reports of pastors and religiously inspired politicians inciting hatred and death threats against gays. Thou shalt not kill apparently doesn't apply to people you hate. Once again we have calls to ban books, particularly those that contain anything gay. Librarians have been threatened to the point of having to quit their jobs. It seems to me that the decline of Christianity is causing a frantic response from the faithful. Much like how fish begin to thrash around as their pond dries out and their survival is threatened. Morals can take a back seat in such circumstances.

Indeed. It's sad to see some of the advances we have made eroding before our very eyes. I used to think that humans have advanced so much that we could never become barbaric again. Over the last two years or so I have gradually come to realize that I was totally wrong.


Tcg

One can only hope that after the Great Cleansing,



.................................


life will return to normal.


.................................

.

[TRANSPONDER]

I for one am quite pleased that at least some humans' morality is much different than Biblegods. The women's rights movement, the LGBTQ+ rights movement, the anti-slavery movement and many others are but some examples of the beneficial result.

Is the tide turning in the United States with Jehovah's morality starting to rear its ugly head again? Every day one can read reports of pastors and religiously inspired politicians inciting hatred and death threats against gays. Thou shalt not kill apparently doesn't apply to people you hate. Once again we have calls to ban books, particularly those that contain anything gay. Librarians have been threatened to the point of having to quit their jobs. It seems to me that the decline of Christianity is causing a frantic response from the faithful. Much like how fish begin to thrash around as their pond dries out and their survival is threatened. Morals can take a back seat in such circumstances.

Indeed. It's sad to see some of the advances we have made eroding before our very eyes. I used to think that humans have advanced so much that we could never become barbaric again. Over the last two years or so I have gradually come to realize that I was totally wrong.


Tcg

One can only hope that after the Great Cleansing,



.................................


life will return to normal.


.................................

.

That just had to be the driest irony ever right? I mean with hundreds of lemmings leaping into a terminal sinkhole and a family that looks like a couple of near 40's with 7 kids aged 8 to 14. with 4 more to go before they reach quiverful status.

[Purple Knight]

This secular morality has only really struggled when an oppressed minority that can't win a law, must call upon the majority to be fair to them despite gaining advantage by not supporting that fairness.

yeah...I get that, but I don't see that has been a struggle for secular morality, or I should say a secularist society because the struggle will only become apparent with an actual secular society., rather than an abstract theory Aside dictatorships which have the same nasty effect whether theist or atheist or of left or right, by and large, the increase in secularity has tended to be in direct proportion to the reduction of religious and temporal control. And an effect of that has tended (or so I see it) towards more rights for different people with different ideas to be allowed to lead their lives and do their thing. It is rather religious and authoritarian control that has tended to dilute the rights of minorities.

It's a problem specific to a society that wants everyone to have say in the laws. It can become a tyranny of the majority. Whereas, if you had a dictator, unaccountable to anyone, he arguably could (though it has not been the tendency I agree) simply solve every problem minorities face. One reason we don't see legal reparations for slavery is that it would upset the majority. If a dictator had absolute power, he could tell the majority, too bad so sad go die in a gutter as he ripped them from their unearned mansions and gave those mansions to the descendants of those who originally cultivated the land those mansions now rest upon.

A brutal dictator who ruled through force at least could achieve an ideal result right away. A religious rule also, could simply have in its holy book that you treat minorities with absolute respect. In the former case the self-centered members of the society do what the dictator says because it's that or be shot. In the religious society they accept that the morality comes from God. It is only in a secular society with relative freedom that we necessarily must make way for the selfish majority and boil their frogs, doing things gradually.

But in the end I agree this has not in general been what dictators and theocracies actually do.

But they could.

And a secular society cannot, because in a secular society, the majority dictates morality. They do because nothing else has any greater authority.

[TRANSPONDER]

This secular morality has only really struggled when an oppressed minority that can't win a law, must call upon the majority to be fair to them despite gaining advantage by not supporting that fairness.

yeah...I get that, but I don't see that has been a struggle for secular morality, or I should say a secularist society because the struggle will only become apparent with an actual secular society., rather than an abstract theory Aside dictatorships which have the same nasty effect whether theist or atheist or of left or right, by and large, the increase in secularity has tended to be in direct proportion to the reduction of religious and temporal control. And an effect of that has tended (or so I see it) towards more rights for different people with different ideas to be allowed to lead their lives and do their thing. It is rather religious and authoritarian control that has tended to dilute the rights of minorities.

It's a problem specific to a society that wants everyone to have say in the laws. It can become a tyranny of the majority. Whereas, if you had a dictator, unaccountable to anyone, he arguably could (though it has not been the tendency I agree) simply solve every problem minorities face. One reason we don't see legal reparations for slavery is that it would upset the majority. If a dictator had absolute power, he could tell the majority, too bad so sad go die in a gutter as he ripped them from their unearned mansions and gave those mansions to the descendants of those who originally cultivated the land those mansions now rest upon.

A brutal dictator who ruled through force at least could achieve an ideal result right away. A religious rule also, could simply have in its holy book that you treat minorities with absolute respect. In the former case the self-centered members of the society do what the dictator says because it's that or be shot. In the religious society they accept that the morality comes from God. It is only in a secular society with relative freedom that we necessarily must make way for the selfish majority and boil their frogs, doing things gradually.

But in the end I agree this has not in general been what dictators and theocracies actually do.

But they could.

And a secular society cannot, because in a secular society, the majority dictates morality. They do because nothing else has any greater authority.

Indeed they could. And if they had and did, we might not have this (wider) debate at all. It would not have been for the secular and rational side of society to push for race and gender rights with the Authorities fighting it with the Churches slapping the pages of text that supported slavery and female inferiority (1).

As to the rash of nasty (social and political) going on right now, it has been festering for a long time, and it may be all to the good that they are going overt rather than trying to do it under cover of democracy and human rights. Like Tolkien said of Saruman trying to fool the winning opponents at Isengard, he gave his true nature away and could no longer delude them.

(1) that's if they bothered to go that far rather than (as you say) using tradition "That's how it has always been" as justification.