Connecting Miracles to God?

[Tcg]

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I recently heard a discussion where it was claimed that a well know former Christian pastor turned atheist told a story of the healing of a mute person which he facilitated while he was a pastor. I won't mention his name because I can't verify that he actually made that claim. However, let's skip that issue a assume a genuine miracle occurred where a person who was mute due to physical issues, was healed. Let's include that the healer prayed in Jesus' name or something to that effect.

How can we connect a genuine healing to the Christian God or any gods for that matter?

Is it enough that the healer invoked Jesus' name or directed the prayer to a specific god/gods?


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

it is certainly a claim or anecdote that requires attention. The matter should (scientifically and for empirical verification) be investigated. That involves duplicating the result, testing the cause and devising double blind tests to check that false causality and correlation is not happening.

If the claim stood up to test, then atheists would have some hard evidence to consider and we would never hear the end of it from the believers. Which is significant since we have only anecdotal claims and some dubious stage performances from televangelists and the like fakers.

Until then, this, like anecdotal claims of miracles, would have to remain anecdotal and thus validates nothing.

And if (as I could see coming) it was indignantly protested that Holy Things should not be defiled by Putting IT to the test (forbidden by scripture) then the goddless would shrug and say 'It remains an unverified claim, then'.

Claims of miracles are ten a penny. I recall some True Believer posting to swear that crowds of physically challenged swarmed into a church he knows of and emerged, joyfully tossing their crutches and wheelchairs into the trucks outside waiting to take the discarded implements to the local tip. I am still waiting for him to tell me the name and locale of this remarkable Fane so I can check this which (unaccountably) I have never heard anywhere else.

I also has a regular debator swear that he needed a job and was getting desperate and he prayed to Jesus (he must have indeed been desperate) and at that very moment, the phone rang.... He could not believe it that I simply would not take his word for it that it went down exactly as he claimed. But then another anecdote about someone with the title 'Dr.' so we must believe everything he says (unless I suppose he is a doctor of evolution or deep time geology studies) healed someone and saw demons fizzing around the room like angry fireworks, sorry, I just had to leave that in the 'credibility pending' tray. And yet another.... A friend of his, see, his mother was real sick with cancer see, and the doctors they say she gonna die real soon, so we all pray to Jesus an in the morning my mutha she dancing an singin' and praisin' Jesus and the docters...them docters..(wait for it)..."They had no Explanation".

"Was that your mutha again, or your friend's mutha?".."What?"

I swear this was a post on my former board, but you - wall have probably heard a similar story before.

Trickier was the miracle of the priests who survives a nuclear blast. This is apparently true, but the story is cagey about how far they lived from the explosion or what protection their place provided.

And I have already dealt with the investigation into Fatima - the 'Shroud' (hard evidence of Bibletruth) of modern verified miracles. But under investigation, it all unravelled into mistakes, misrepresentations and misunderstandings.

We needn't dwell too much on the CGI miracles like the beam of light at the dome of the rock or the baby Jesus at Bethlehem (1) or the tale of the blackened corpse that came to lie, a story that went viral and lost nothing in the retelling. So perhaps we goddless can be forgiven for not swallowing every claim that finding a ten dollar not on the street proves Jesus is real. And such skepticism may well lead the Believers to claim that we unbelievers wouldn't believe even if Jesus came down in Powr on the Clouds and did book signings. Let's wait for that to happen and we'll see. Until then, Dtrs advice, don't hold your breath.

(1) with suitably creepy music.



oh camera was left running and he didn't know. When I've done that, the camera is pointing at the floor, not at a Holy opening, begging for a baby to be put in there.

[christian001]

When people pray in Jesus' name, miracles happen and Lee Strobel has documented this. https://www.explainchristianity.com/sci ... -miracles/

[Tcg]

When people pray in Jesus' name, miracles happen and Lee Strobel has documented this. https://www.explainchristianity.com/sci ... -miracles/

Simply stating that does not establish that it is true. Pretending for a moment that your claim is true; how can we connect the reported miracle to God?


Tcg

[Miles]

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I recently heard a discussion where it was claimed that a well know former Christian pastor turned atheist told a story of the healing of a mute person which he facilitated while he was a pastor. I won't mention his name because I can't verify that he actually made that claim. However, let's skip that issue a assume a genuine miracle occurred where a person who was mute due to physical issues, was healed. Let's include that the healer prayed in Jesus' name or something to that effect.

How can we connect a genuine healing to the Christian God or any gods for that matter?

One cannot.

Is it enough that the healer invoked Jesus' name or directed the prayer to a specific god/gods?

No, because no cause-effect has been established. For all one knows the "healing" may have taken place because the mute had eaten carrots or had a good bowel movement the day before. I say this rather glibly because I couldn't find a single verifiable case of physical mutism that was ever cured by miracle, i.e. without benefit of surgery.

"Mutism can be broadly categorized in terms of the type of factors that incite it in patients namely – Neurologically based and psychologically based.

Neurologically based mutism: The type of mutism which is caused by physical impairment of brain or speech motor system due to a multitude of reasons including birth defects, accidents, head or neck injuries, strokes or Parkinson’s Disease. A bilateral damage to the frontal lobe of the brain which renders the patient unable to move the Akinesia causes the Akinetic Mutism. Here, along with speech, other abilities such as motor control, arousal etc is also similarly impaired.
[my emphasis]

Psychologically Based Mutism: The major kind of such mutism is medically termed as Selective Mutism, wherein there is a consistent failure to speak in specific social situations , often triggered by anxiety and presenting itself mostly in professional/educational / social advancement and the continuation of the behavior is more than a month. This is a direct result of an over-excited Amygdala (the fear-detecting centre of the brain) which determines the fight or flight mode of human beings.
source

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[TRANSPONDER]

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I recently heard a discussion where it was claimed that a well know former Christian pastor turned atheist told a story of the healing of a mute person which he facilitated while he was a pastor. I won't mention his name because I can't verify that he actually made that claim. However, let's skip that issue a assume a genuine miracle occurred where a person who was mute due to physical issues, was healed. Let's include that the healer prayed in Jesus' name or something to that effect.

How can we connect a genuine healing to the Christian God or any gods for that matter?

One cannot.

Is it enough that the healer invoked Jesus' name or directed the prayer to a specific god/gods?

No, because no cause-effect has been established. For all one knows the "healing" may have taken place because the mute had eaten carrots or had a good bowel movement the day before. I say this rather glibly because I couldn't find a single verifiable case of physical mutism that was ever cured by miracle, i.e. without benefit of surgery.

"Mutism can be broadly categorized in terms of the type of factors that incite it in patients namely – Neurologically based and psychologically based.

Neurologically based mutism: The type of mutism which is caused by physical impairment of brain or speech motor system due to a multitude of reasons including birth defects, accidents, head or neck injuries, strokes or Parkinson’s Disease. A bilateral damage to the frontal lobe of the brain which renders the patient unable to move the Akinesia causes the Akinetic Mutism. Here, along with speech, other abilities such as motor control, arousal etc is also similarly impaired.
[my emphasis]

Psychologically Based Mutism: The major kind of such mutism is medically termed as Selective Mutism, wherein there is a consistent failure to speak in specific social situations , often triggered by anxiety and presenting itself mostly in professional/educational / social advancement and the continuation of the behavior is more than a month. This is a direct result of an over-excited Amygdala (the fear-detecting centre of the brain) which determines the fight or flight mode of human beings.
source

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Yes. It is the gap for god fallacy (appeal to unknowns) where anything that science has no ready explanation for has to be credited to whichever god the believer prays to. No causality, as you say. That's just for verified 'Miracles'. The unverified ones (let alone what look strongly like fakes) remain anecdotal claims and we (atheist apologists) learned that we had to dismiss anecdotal claims as no evidence because we had no way of examining the circumstances, assuming (fsoa) that the story was true.

[bjs1]

Is it enough that the healer invoked Jesus' name or directed the prayer to a specific god/gods?

Yes, that would be sufficient evidence to at least seriously consider this a miracle from the named deity

Consider the alternative. We would be saying that the mutism ended at the exact moment that someone was praying purely by coincidence. Applying the “God of the gap” fallacy (as mentioned in post 6) means not only is this event beyond what science can explain, but it also happened in conjunction with a prayer, all for no apparent reason.

In the George Floyd murder trial the defense argued that Floyd had a heart attack entirely by coincidence and which had nothing to do with the officer pressing his knee on the back of Floyd’s neck. Of course the officer was convicted. No rational person would believe that a heart attack could happen with such timing and not be connected to the actions of the officer.

Similarly, no rational person could claim that a person just happened to have a dramatic and unexplained healing at the exact moment that he was being prayed for and that healing not be connected to the prayer.

Either the person had been dishonest and was not actually mute, or God intervened. The appeal to coincidence* in denying this is too strong to ignore.




*The logical fallacy of concluding that a result is due to chance when the evidence strongly suggests otherwise.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/log ... oincidence

[Miles]

Is it enough that the healer invoked Jesus' name or directed the prayer to a specific god/gods?

Yes, that would be sufficient evidence to at least seriously consider this a miracle from the named deity

Consider the alternative. We would be saying that the mutism ended at the exact moment that someone was praying purely by coincidence.

Indeed that would be nice, but as I mentioned in post 5, I never came across a verifiable case of physical mutism that was ever cured without benefit of surgery. Have you? If so please share your evidence---and keep in mind that mere anecdotal evidence doesn't qualify.

First of all, before the healing the mutism would have to have been established as truly Neurological and not Psychologically based.

Secondly, it would have to be established that no surgical or other physically invasive procedure took place.

Thirdly, there would have to be a medical post-healing inspection of the mute confirming that a true healing took place.


Other than that any such "miraculous healing" would just be another amusing, but worthless anecdote.

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[bjs1]

Is it enough that the healer invoked Jesus' name or directed the prayer to a specific god/gods?

Yes, that would be sufficient evidence to at least seriously consider this a miracle from the named deity

Consider the alternative. We would be saying that the mutism ended at the exact moment that someone was praying purely by coincidence.

Indeed that would be nice, but as I mentioned in post 5, I never came across a verifiable case of physical mutism that was ever cured without benefit of surgery. Have you? If so please share your evidence---and keep in mind that mere anecdotal evidence doesn't qualify.

First of all, before the healing the mutism would have to have been established as truly Neurological and not Psychologically based.

Secondly, it would have to be established that no surgical or other physically invasive procedure took place.

Thirdly, there would have to be a medical post-healing inspection of the mute confirming that a true healing took place.


Other than that any such "miraculous healing" would just be another amusing, but worthless anecdote.

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Tcg started this thread by asking us to "assume a genuine miracle occurred where a person who was mute due to physical issues, was healed."

If that is not an issue that interests you then that is fine. However, please refrain from commenting on my posts if you are not going to address the topic at hand. Thank you.

[Miles]

Is it enough that the healer invoked Jesus' name or directed the prayer to a specific god/gods?

Yes, that would be sufficient evidence to at least seriously consider this a miracle from the named deity

Consider the alternative. We would be saying that the mutism ended at the exact moment that someone was praying purely by coincidence.

Indeed that would be nice, but as I mentioned in post 5, I never came across a verifiable case of physical mutism that was ever cured without benefit of surgery. Have you? If so please share your evidence---and keep in mind that mere anecdotal evidence doesn't qualify.

First of all, before the healing the mutism would have to have been established as truly Neurological and not Psychologically based.

Secondly, it would have to be established that no surgical or other physically invasive procedure took place.

Thirdly, there would have to be a medical post-healing inspection of the mute confirming that a true healing took place.


Other than that any such "miraculous healing" would just be another amusing, but worthless anecdote.

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Tcg started this thread by asking us to "assume a genuine miracle occurred where a person who was mute due to physical issues, was healed."

Tcg also asked: How can we connect a genuine healing to the Christian God or any gods for that matter?

To which I answered: "One cannot."

Then Tcg asked "Is it enough that the healer invoked Jesus' name or directed the prayer to a specific god/gods?"

You happened to say "Yes," and I happened to say "No," (It is NOT enough that the healer invoked Jesus' name or directed the prayer to a specific god. To cure Neurologically based mutism requires surgical intervention of some sort) which I feel is the germane question at hand. Now if you can't debate issues in a debate forum, whatever they may be, may I suggest you stick to those forums where you won't be challenged, because this is exactly what happens in Debate Forums. You make a comment, I comment on your comment, and you, in turn, comment on my comment, and so on and so forth. Everyone commenting on someone else's comment. But no one is required to stick to any one comment, and everyone is open for comment/criticism. Now, if you can't or don't want to respond to my comment, fine; however, I do not have to "refrain from commenting on your posts if I'm not going to address the topic at hand," as you see it. In fact, we can both comment on anything anyone else says no matter what it may be. AND both of us also have the option of NOT commenting on anything anyone else says no matter what it may be. What we cannot do, however, is stop others from commenting on what we say. ..............Sorry.

(Let me also share the fact that Tcg thanked me for my posts including the one I addressed to you.)


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