WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE IN JESUS?

[Eddie Ramos]

Throughout the vast religions of the world, most of them acknowledge Jesus Christ as having something to do with God. In other words, they all say that they believe in Jesus, but what exactly do they believe about Jesus? This is where the division comes in. Some believe that Jesus was just a good teacher, but not the son of God. Yet others believe that Jesus was the son of God, but not God himself. And still others believe that Jesus was God in the flesh. But all of these believe in Jesus. Does that mean that they are all saved? Not at all. When the Bible says that we must believe in Jesus, there is actually something very specific that God has in mind.

John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

The Word of God tells us that believing in Jesus is to believe that he is I AM, meaning , JEHOVAH in the flesh. And because God has written the Bible in the form of parables (to conceal truth), the casual reader who approaches the Bible as a plain textbook, is left extremely confused as to who one is versus the other. And so, they say they believe in Jesus, yet they actually don't truly believe the way the Bible requires it. They reject that Jesus is God in the flesh. And by doing so, they remain dead their sins as per John 8:24.

I will be defending the truth of the scriptures that teach that Jesus is JEHOVAH in the flesh, and that true belief in Jesus, means to believe that he is indeed JEHOVAH in the flesh. If anyone objects this position, I will respond with the Bible to whatever scriptures you provide.

What do you think it means, according to the Bible, to believe in Jesus?

[Eddie Ramos]

...
John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

The Word of God tells us that believing in Jesus is to believe that he is I AM, meaning , JEHOVAH in the flesh. And because God has written the Bible in the form of parables (to conceal truth), the casual reader who approaches the Bible as a plain textbook, is left extremely confused as to who one is versus the other. And so, they say they believe in Jesus, yet they actually don't truly believe the way the Bible requires it. They reject that Jesus is God in the flesh. And by doing so, they remain dead their sins as per John 8:24.

I will be defending the truth of the scriptures that teach that Jesus is JEHOVAH in the flesh, and that true belief in Jesus, means to believe that he is indeed JEHOVAH in the flesh. If anyone objects this position, I will respond with the Bible to whatever scriptures you provide.

What do you think it means, according to the Bible, to believe in Jesus?

I think believe in Jesus should mean person believes what he said. And Jesus said for example that there is only one true God that is greater than him.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

Jesus said to her, “Don’t touch me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
John 20:17

...the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

But, Bible says also that Jesus, as also his disciples are the temple of God, God lives in them. So, in a way God is in the flesh of them.

Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 3:16
For in him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,
Colossians 2:9
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore
said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he
spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

The "I AM" argument is not good, because if we accept that, then we would have to think Paul is also the God, because he uses the same words.

Sorry it took so long for me to reply, but I wanted to make sure that what I had studied before concerning the phrase "I AM" is still correct. And the "I AM" argument is actually a very good argument if we take the time to examine the original biblical text against the translated text. Let's start with the verse in question.

John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

So, there's nothing wrong, per se, with this translation. The only problem is that in the above translation, we could take it to mean various things by focusing on the word "he" as to what Christ had in view for us to believe in. For example, "for if ye believe not that I am he meaning, the messiah, or meaning the Son of God, or a prophet, etc. But when we omit that one added word, it brings emphasis to what Christ is actually saying.

John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

Now, there is no question as to what Christ is telling us to believe in, and that's the fact that he is the I AM, God Almighty, JEHOVAH. And in order to know that this is so, we have to examine every time the English translators decided to translate the words, "I am" throughout the New Testament" in order to verify that this phrase is exclusively used of Christ alone. In the Greek, the Phrase "I AM" are the words "egō eimi". In other words, the word "egō" always means "I", and the word "eimi" always means "am", but how these words are arranged in the original text is what teaches us the difference between one and the other. And when we look in our concordance for every instance the translated words "I am" is used, and we look up each verse, we'll notice that this exact phrase "egō eimi" is only used of Christ. And this of course was by design to teach us a spiritual truth about who Christ is.

Here are a few passages where that exact phrase is found:

Matthew 14:27 (KJV 1900)
But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I (I AM) (egō eimi); be not afraid.

Matthew 22:32 (KJV 1900)
I AM (egō eimi) the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Matthew 24:5 (KJV 1900)
For many shall come in my name, saying, I AM (egō eimi) the Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mark 14:62 (KJV 1900)
And Jesus said, I AM (egō eimi): and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Luke 1:19 (KJV 1900)
And the angel answering said unto him, I AM (egō eimi) Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.


Luke 22:70 (KJV 1900)
Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I AM (egō eimi).

Luke 24:39 (KJV 1900)
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I (egō eimi) myself : handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

How about Paul, as you mentioned? Is he also referred to as "I am" when he speaks of himself? Well, we have to remember that in English, it may seem that way, but it's the original text that matters and God has arranged the words to speak of others. So, the first time Paul addresses himself and used the words "I am", it's in this verse.

Acts 21:39 (KJV 1900)
But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

So, if we let ourselves be led by the English translation here and elsewhere, then we are trusting in the works of other men and not in the actual word of God. But when we examine the inspired text, we see that there is altogether a different order here. But because the translators wanted to make it flow properly, they translated it the way they did. But let's see how the original text has it written:

Acts 21:39 (KJV 1900)
But Paul said, I (egō) a man (anthrōpos) indeed (men) am (eimi) a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

And if you examine every other instance, you will see that neither Paul nor any other person has the phrase (egō eimi) written to describe them the way it describes Christ. There will always be words in between "egō" and "eimi" when describing others. Which takes us back to our initial scripture.

John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

This is what Christ warned us to believe in, that he is I AM. And this came with a very serious consequence.

No, Christ never claimed to be "I Am." In Exodus 3:14 we can observe what many scholars have rendered this verse, and some have translated it as: "I WILL Prove to Be what I WILL prove to be." Not necessarily "I Am." So would Jesus be saying "Before Abraham existed I WILL??" No, he was not saying that he was "the I Am." When he stated John 8:58, he was saying how long he had lived, not who he was. It should be rendered, "Before Abraham came into existence, I Have Been." That is the scripturally correct translation. The Pharisees were angry enough to kill him not because he actually claimed to be God but because he was claiming to be older than Abraham. They accused him of many things that were not true.

When he said "unless you believe that I am he"....he was claiming to be the Savior, not God.

If Jesus is God upon saying the words "I am," then the formerly blind man of John 9:9 is also God.

If you want to place your trust in what the scholars have to say over what the Bible says, then you are placing your trust in the wrong thing and will never be able to come to truth that way.

Jeremiah 17:5 (KJV) 5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

God didn't write his words with the concern that they would make grammatical sense to us. It's our job as Bible students to figure our what God meant by what he said. So, when God uses the name I AM to describe himself, we can't change it to mean what we want it to mean, because it's a name. And God uses names in the Bible to teach us more about himself. The name I AM teaches us that he is the one true God.

Exodus 3:13-14 (KJV) 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

And so when Christ used the same name for himself because he is JEHOVAH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, the Pharisees picked up on what he was saying and picked up stones to cast.


John 8:58-59 (KJV) 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The only time the Jews tried to stone Christ is when they picked up on the fact that Christ made himself to be God, because he is God.

John 10:29-33 (KJV) 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one (1 Jn 5:7). 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Part of the mystery of the Godhead was to make Christ seem like he couldn't possibly be God and so be rejected as such. Yet for thise whose eyes God had opened, they recognized who Christ truly was.

John 20:28-29 (KJV) 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

And there are so many more scriptures that can be presented that teach thus very truth.

[1213]

Well, when we read it in the Old Testament, it also doesn't make logical sense to us because it doesn't make grammatical sense. ...

To me it makes sense. And it is interesting how you find it nonsensical.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #10]
You have taken verses and misapplied them. First of all, I John 5:7,8 does not exist in early manuscripts and is not included in most relatively recent versions of the Bible.

Genesis 1:26 does not indicate that Jesus is Jehovah. It says "US" and therefore is saying that there are more than one person involved. It is Jehovah AND his Son, and it probably includes the angels also.

Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 show that Jesus is the first creation by Jehovah. It is crystal clear.

Your verses with which you are trying to say that Jesus existed before the world began, etc., are true....he did exist before everything else besides himself, and created everything else with his Father's power and approval....but you do not understand the phrase "before the world began." It is speaking about the world of mankind alienated from God, such as John is referencing in his first letter at I John 2:15. It is not the planet itself. Jesus was not always destined to die for mankind. Only after sin entered into the world. This may be a little deep for you. I hope you can get the jist of this.

Jeremiah 23:6 does not show that "Jehovah" is Jesus' own name. It is like the name "Matthew" which means "gift of God." Matthew himself is not called "the Gift." People don't call him that. Neither do we call Jesus "Jehovah." In fact, "Jesus" means "Salvation of Jehovah." Jehovah and Jesus are two Persons, not one. Your idea that they are the same is not proven by your references. And nowhere is there any indication of a Trinity.

[onewithhim]

...
John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

The Word of God tells us that believing in Jesus is to believe that he is I AM, meaning , JEHOVAH in the flesh. And because God has written the Bible in the form of parables (to conceal truth), the casual reader who approaches the Bible as a plain textbook, is left extremely confused as to who one is versus the other. And so, they say they believe in Jesus, yet they actually don't truly believe the way the Bible requires it. They reject that Jesus is God in the flesh. And by doing so, they remain dead their sins as per John 8:24.

I will be defending the truth of the scriptures that teach that Jesus is JEHOVAH in the flesh, and that true belief in Jesus, means to believe that he is indeed JEHOVAH in the flesh. If anyone objects this position, I will respond with the Bible to whatever scriptures you provide.

What do you think it means, according to the Bible, to believe in Jesus?

I think believe in Jesus should mean person believes what he said. And Jesus said for example that there is only one true God that is greater than him.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

Jesus said to her, “Don’t touch me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
John 20:17

...the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

But, Bible says also that Jesus, as also his disciples are the temple of God, God lives in them. So, in a way God is in the flesh of them.

Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 3:16
For in him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,
Colossians 2:9
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore
said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he
spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

The "I AM" argument is not good, because if we accept that, then we would have to think Paul is also the God, because he uses the same words.

Sorry it took so long for me to reply, but I wanted to make sure that what I had studied before concerning the phrase "I AM" is still correct. And the "I AM" argument is actually a very good argument if we take the time to examine the original biblical text against the translated text. Let's start with the verse in question.

John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

So, there's nothing wrong, per se, with this translation. The only problem is that in the above translation, we could take it to mean various things by focusing on the word "he" as to what Christ had in view for us to believe in. For example, "for if ye believe not that I am he meaning, the messiah, or meaning the Son of God, or a prophet, etc. But when we omit that one added word, it brings emphasis to what Christ is actually saying.

John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

Now, there is no question as to what Christ is telling us to believe in, and that's the fact that he is the I AM, God Almighty, JEHOVAH. And in order to know that this is so, we have to examine every time the English translators decided to translate the words, "I am" throughout the New Testament" in order to verify that this phrase is exclusively used of Christ alone. In the Greek, the Phrase "I AM" are the words "egō eimi". In other words, the word "egō" always means "I", and the word "eimi" always means "am", but how these words are arranged in the original text is what teaches us the difference between one and the other. And when we look in our concordance for every instance the translated words "I am" is used, and we look up each verse, we'll notice that this exact phrase "egō eimi" is only used of Christ. And this of course was by design to teach us a spiritual truth about who Christ is.

Here are a few passages where that exact phrase is found:

Matthew 14:27 (KJV 1900)
But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I (I AM) (egō eimi); be not afraid.

Matthew 22:32 (KJV 1900)
I AM (egō eimi) the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Matthew 24:5 (KJV 1900)
For many shall come in my name, saying, I AM (egō eimi) the Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mark 14:62 (KJV 1900)
And Jesus said, I AM (egō eimi): and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Luke 1:19 (KJV 1900)
And the angel answering said unto him, I AM (egō eimi) Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.


Luke 22:70 (KJV 1900)
Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I AM (egō eimi).

Luke 24:39 (KJV 1900)
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I (egō eimi) myself : handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

How about Paul, as you mentioned? Is he also referred to as "I am" when he speaks of himself? Well, we have to remember that in English, it may seem that way, but it's the original text that matters and God has arranged the words to speak of others. So, the first time Paul addresses himself and used the words "I am", it's in this verse.

Acts 21:39 (KJV 1900)
But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

So, if we let ourselves be led by the English translation here and elsewhere, then we are trusting in the works of other men and not in the actual word of God. But when we examine the inspired text, we see that there is altogether a different order here. But because the translators wanted to make it flow properly, they translated it the way they did. But let's see how the original text has it written:

Acts 21:39 (KJV 1900)
But Paul said, I (egō) a man (anthrōpos) indeed (men) am (eimi) a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

And if you examine every other instance, you will see that neither Paul nor any other person has the phrase (egō eimi) written to describe them the way it describes Christ. There will always be words in between "egō" and "eimi" when describing others. Which takes us back to our initial scripture.

John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

This is what Christ warned us to believe in, that he is I AM. And this came with a very serious consequence.

No, Christ never claimed to be "I Am." In Exodus 3:14 we can observe what many scholars have rendered this verse, and some have translated it as: "I WILL Prove to Be what I WILL prove to be." Not necessarily "I Am." So would Jesus be saying "Before Abraham existed I WILL??" No, he was not saying that he was "the I Am." When he stated John 8:58, he was saying how long he had lived, not who he was. It should be rendered, "Before Abraham came into existence, I Have Been." That is the scripturally correct translation. The Pharisees were angry enough to kill him not because he actually claimed to be God but because he was claiming to be older than Abraham. They accused him of many things that were not true.

When he said "unless you believe that I am he"....he was claiming to be the Savior, not God.

If Jesus is God upon saying the words "I am," then the formerly blind man of John 9:9 is also God.

If you want to place your trust in what the scholars have to say over what the Bible says, then you are placing your trust in the wrong thing and will never be able to come to truth that way.

Jeremiah 17:5 (KJV) 5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

So you say the Bible says "LORD" in those places such as Jeremiah 17:5 (and 7,000 other places)? You are wrong. The original manuscripts show the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) there. MEN have replaced the name of God with "LORD" in all caps. So you are wrong that the original manuscripts say "LORD" instead of God's personal name. The King James Version saw fit to show the name of God in four places, rather than substitute it with "LORD"....one such place is at Psalm 83:18 where it says, "....that men may know that Thou whose name alone is JEHOVAH art the most high over all the earth." That is what should appear in all 7,000 places where "LORD" in all capital letters appears. So what does the BIBLE actually say? You are the one not looking at the original meanings, found in Jewish Bibles with the Tetragrammaton, and showing what should be in the translations that we have, including the King James. Look into an Interlinear Version and you will see the Tetragrammaton in all of those 7,000 occasions.

[Eddie Ramos]

Well, when we read it in the Old Testament, it also doesn't make logical sense to us because it doesn't make grammatical sense. ...

To me it makes sense. And it is interesting how you find it nonsensical.

If it makes sense to you then when JEHOVAH said it, then why doesn't it make sense to you when Christ said the same thing?

John 8:58 (KJV 1900)
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

[William]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #15]

"I Am That I Am"
Is not the same as
"I Am"

YHWH: "I Am That I Am"

Jesus: "I Am"

[Eddie Ramos]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #10]
You have taken verses and misapplied them. First of all, I John 5:7,8 does not exist in early manuscripts and is not included in most relatively recent versions of the Bible.

Yes, I've heard such argument before from those who cannot make this passage fit into their doctrine. I've also heard from Muslims that reject anything Paul said in the Bible as corrupted text. But why try and discredit what Paul said? Because it contradicts everything they believe to be true. Likewise, trying to claim that the inspired text has been corrupted by man. The received text has it written for all to verify, if you hold to another text that is not inspired, then it's because it was edited to fit doctrines like yours. But a serious and honest Bible student doesn't need to try and discredit anything in the inspired text. We take all of it and see how it agrees with our doctrine and make correction if need be.

Genesis 1:26 does not indicate that Jesus is Jehovah. It says "US" and therefore is saying that there are more than one person involved. It is Jehovah AND his Son, and it probably includes the angels also.

There was definitely more than one person involved when ELOHYM said, "let US make man in our image after our likeness". In that we agree. But God was very careful to choose his words here and he didn't say, "and JEHOVAH said, let us make man in our image...". God chose "ELOHYM" in this particular instance because it describes the plurality of the one God (1 John 5:7-8). And no where in the scriptures is it even suggested that we were made in the image of angels who are ministering spirits. Furthermore, the scriptures teach that God is a spirit and invisible.

John 4:24 (KJV 1900)
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Therefore, to be made in his image and likeness means that there is a similarity in appearance and likeness. We can confirm this here.

Genesis 5:3 (KJV 1900)
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

But we don't have to try and guess how after whose image and likeness we were created. It was after Christ's, who is the image of the invisible God because he is God himself.

Colossians 1:15 (KJV 1900)
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

This means when we see Christ, we have seen the Father.

John 14:8–9 (KJV 1900)
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known ME, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

And again, we need nor speculate as to who ELOHYM was talking to when he said, "let us make..". Because after the fall, he referred to "us" yet again when he said that mankind, now that they had sinned, became like one of them, knowing (having experienced) good and evil? Who is ELOHYM talking about? I answered it for you in an earlier post, but I don't mind if you answer this. But remember that your answer must come from the scriptures.

Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 show that Jesus is the first creation by Jehovah. It is crystal clear.

You are more than welcome (even encouraged) to post whatever scripture leads you to conclude that any part of the scriptures are "crystal clear" so as to affect the way we understand every other related scripture. But we do have scriptures that teach that the Word of God spoke in parables and without a parable he did not speak. And that God conceals truth from his word for his own glory, truth that must be sought out by comparing spiritual with spiritual, not "crystal clear with crystal clear". Also, every part of the word must agree as one cohesive truth, we learn this in 1 John 5:7-8. So, while Christ is the beginning of the creation of God, it doesn't mean that he isn't God himself. What you are doing is trying to insert your own logic into the equation of understanding an infinite being like God with a finite mind we all posses. Every scripture must be taken into account before we can arrive at a conclusion about knowing anything about God, and only then, we will only know that which he has decided to reveal unto us through his Word.

Psalm 119:18 (KJV 1900)
18  Open thou mine eyes,
That I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

Matthew 11:27 (KJV 1900)
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Your verses with which you are trying to say that Jesus existed before the world began, etc., are true....he did exist before everything else besides himself, and created everything else with his Father's power and approval....but you do not understand the phrase "before the world began." It is speaking about the world of mankind alienated from God, such as John is referencing in his first letter at I John 2:15. It is not the planet itself. Jesus was not always destined to die for mankind. Only after sin entered into the world. This may be a little deep for you. I hope you can get the jist of this.

I don't mind diving in the deep end as long as we can support what we are bringing to the table from the scriptures. Let's start with the phrase, "before the world began".

2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV 1900)
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world (chronos) began,

You said that this phrase, "...is speaking about the world of mankind alienated from God, such as John is referencing in his first letter at I John 2:15. It is not the planet itself." It is true that the planet itself is not in view in this passage, because the planet was not even created when this passage takes it's application. It says, before there was even time. And when did time begin? In the beginning of course. This is when God began counting time in the form of days.

Genesis 1:5 (KJV 1900)
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 1:14 (KJV 1900)
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Many like to think time began after the fall, yet have no scriptures to prove it. But we have plenty to prove that time began on day 1. Now, if we compare 2 Timothy 1:9 with 1 John 2:15, we discover that they do not use the same words, even though in English, they're translated the exact same way as "world". In 1 John 2:15, it is the word "kosmos" which definitely identifies with, not only this physical earth, but everything in it, because it has all been corrupted by sin.

1 John 2:15 (KJV 1900)
15 Love not the world (kosmos), neither the things that are in the world (kosmos). If any man love the world (kosmos), the love of the Father is not in him.

Then we get to the "deep" part. You said, "Jesus was not always destined to die for mankind. Only after sin entered into the world". Ok, let's see if the scriptures agree.

Christ was already poured out like a drink offering for sins in eternity past.
Proverbs 8:23 (KJV 1900)
I was set up (poured out- which is used to identify with an offering) from everlasting, from the beginning,
Or ever the earth was.

Christ already chose those whom he would save before the world was even created.

Ephesians 1:4 (KJV 1900)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

It was Christ's death before the world began that made the preparation of the kingdom (also before the world began) possible.

Matthew 25:34 (KJV 1900)
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

So, Christ definitely died to pay for sins before the world began. And this death made it possible to enter into his rest. And this was done, not in principle, but in deed.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV 1900)
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Not only was Christ slain from the foundation of the world....

Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900)
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

...but the very names of all those who were chosen to be saved were also written in the lamb's book of life at the very same time, from the foundation of the world. And all thosae who were not chosen to be saved, did not have their names written in the same book, at the same time.
Revelation 17:8 (KJV 1900)
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

I can keep going, but I think you have enough to work with here to hopefully see the error in your statement.

Jeremiah 23:6 does not show that "Jehovah" is Jesus' own name. It is like the name "Matthew" which means "gift of God." Matthew himself is not called "the Gift." People don't call him that. Neither do we call Jesus "Jehovah." In fact, "Jesus" means "Salvation of Jehovah." Jehovah and Jesus are two Persons, not one. Your idea that they are the same is not proven by your references. And nowhere is there any indication of a Trinity.

Again, if you deny 1 John 5:7-8, then that is between you and God. But that is not the only reference to the plurality of the one true God which "just so happens", agrees with 1 John 5:7-8.

Genesis 18:1–5 (KJV 1900)
And JEHOVAH appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.


JEHOVAH is said to have appeared to Abraham, and the next thing we read is that there are three men. Not one but three. Now, nothing in the scriptures is by happenstance. And Abraham sees the three men and addresses them as a singular Lord. Now, Abraham didn't choose his words, these are God's breathed words and they're always teaching us to pay close attention to how he has chosen to record this historical account.

Moving on. Names in the scriptures teach us many truths about the one named. Matthew does mean "Gift of Jehovah", but anytime the Bible talks about a gift of God, it refers to his salvation. Matthew therefore, was named Matthew because he identifies with someone who has received the gift of God. But when God gives names concerning himself, or his son, or his spirit, it's to describe something additional about God that we need to know, in order to have a better understanding of who he is.


I AM (identifying as the one true God)
​El Shaddai (Lord God Almighty)
El Elyon (The Most High God)
Adonai (Lord, Master)
Yahweh (Lord, Jehovah)
Jehovah Nissi (The Lord My Banner)
Jehovah Raah (The Lord My Shepherd)
Jehovah Rapha (The Lord That Heals)
Jehovah Shammah (The Lord Is There)
Jehovah Tsidkenu (The Lord Our Righteousness)
Jehovah Mekoddishkem (The Lord Who Sanctifies You)
El Olam (The Everlasting God)
Elohim (God)
Qanna (Jealous)
Jehovah Jireh (The Lord Will Provide)
Jehovah Shalom (The Lord Is Peace)
Jehovah Sabaoth (The Lord of Hosts)

So, when Jeremiah 23:6 tells us that the name of the righteous branch which he has raised up (which is the Christ) is "Jehovah Tsidkenu" (Jehovah Our Righteousness), then he is telling us the name of the Messiah which describes to us who he is. Just like every other name listed above describes another part of the same God. In other words, JEHOVAH OUR REDEEMER is that righteous branch. And the fact that you're saying that, ""Jesus" means "Salvation of Jehovah."" only serves to further confirm what I stated above. The messiah is the salvation of JEHOVAH and not any other god. And JEHOVAH did this when he became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, and as Christ, he humbled himself when he emptied himself. And it's this humility that confuses people to think that because one became lower than the other, then "logically" they can't be the same God. Yet, when all the pieces are put together correctly, then the whole picture can be seen more clearly. That this son, this child, is indeed the everlasting Father.

[Eddie Ramos]

If you want to place your trust in what the scholars have to say over what the Bible says, then you are placing your trust in the wrong thing and will never be able to come to truth that way.

Jeremiah 17:5 (KJV) 5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

So you say the Bible says "LORD" in those places such as Jeremiah 17:5 (and 7,000 other places)? You are wrong. The original manuscripts show the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) there. MEN have replaced the name of God with "LORD" in all caps. So you are wrong that the original manuscripts say "LORD" instead of God's personal name. The King James Version saw fit to show the name of God in four places, rather than substitute it with "LORD"....one such place is at Psalm 83:18 where it says, "....that men may know that Thou whose name alone is JEHOVAH art the most high over all the earth." That is what should appear in all 7,000 places where "LORD" in all capital letters appears. So what does the BIBLE actually say? You are the one not looking at the original meanings, found in Jewish Bibles with the Tetragrammaton, and showing what should be in the translations that we have, including the King James. Look into an Interlinear Version and you will see the Tetragrammaton in all of those 7,000 occasions.

Please show me where I stated that the original manuscripts say "LORD" instead of "JEHOVAH" and I will gladly make correction. But that's not at all what I said. I simply copied and pasted a verse from the KJV. I know that the word "LORD" (with all caps) should always be understood as "JEHOVAH", but I can't do it with every verse I post (even though I do it with many) because it takes too much time to complete the post. But as long as I know what it means when I see it, that is enough for me.

Also, your comment doesn't make sense if you're directing it at me of not saying what the Bible actually says, because you're the one who quoted the "scholars" opinion as if though they had some kind of authority in how the text was supposed to be written. You quoted them saying, ""I WILL Prove to Be what I WILL prove to be."" and thought that this was a better way to translated it, but the original text is in the present active tense (I AM), not in the future tense (I WILL BE). So, who gave them the authority to change the tense of the word? Their bias? Or the theological certification which hangs on their wall? Don't you know that God can impart spiritual wisdom unto the lowly fishermen of this world and keep the teachers of the law blind? And when someone attempts to do such a thing as they have done, it is not only shameful, but also dangerous to those who follow them.

[Eddie Ramos]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #15]

"I Am That I Am"
Is not the same as
"I Am"

YHWH: "I Am That I Am"

Jesus: "I Am"

Exodus 3:14 (KJV 1900)
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

It is indeed the same, but what you're doing is trying to look for a direct word for word match in order to convince yourself. That is not how the Bible was written.

[William]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #15]

"I Am That I Am"
Is not the same as
"I Am"

YHWH: "I Am That I Am"

Jesus: "I Am"

Exodus 3:14 (KJV 1900)
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

It is indeed the same, but what you're doing is trying to look for a direct word for word match in order to convince yourself. That is not how the Bible was written.

Thanks for clarifying.

So now what do we have here. Jesus sent God to Moses..."I AM hath sent me unto you"