Parasites and Darwin

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Parasites and Darwin

Post #1

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Entymology interests me and I have been reading a lot recently. I am both fascinated and horrified especially at the things that parasites do, not only to humans but within insect and animal lives. There truly is appalling stuff going on! Like organisms slowly eating other organisms alive.

I read that Darwin himself had a real crisis of conscience about this. He wondered how a loving creator could have done made this so.

I too am pondering on this, as a committed Christian. How in this world everything consumes everything. In my humble opinion I trust that this must be the only way the balance of nature can be maintained. Yet did it have to be so very cruel? I cannot blame people for doubting God.

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Re: Parasites and Darwin

Post #11

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:19 pm Once again I told you what was written, if you choose to react emotionally that's your choice but you won't get very far in any discussion by arguing from emotions rather than facts.
Now that's hilarious. You advocate a God that intentionally tortures and kills billions of babies, and then condemn any "emotional" reaction to that?

Do you appreciate how that make you look?
That God is in control and nothing happens that God does not permit, is central theme in scripture, that you regard that as committing "atrocities" is not really rational, how can the creator of something commit an atrocity against it? perhaps you've never considered such questions?
Ever see an abusive parent try that goofy and sick argument in court? "Well your Honor, since I created the child I cannot possibly commit any wrongs against it."
Perhaps you're not familiar with the deep philosophical challenges that arise and can only resort to emotions, I don't know but tough subjects require a tough mind.
Given the above, the irony of you trying to chastise me for not thinking this through is so thick it could be used to pave streets.

But as I said, if you want to believe in, love, and worship an entity that tortures and kills billions of babies, criticize any emotional reaction to that, and argue that if you make something you can do anything you want to it......well....

Sometimes the wisest thing to do in these situations is to give people like you the stage and let you speak for yourself.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: Parasites and Darwin

Post #12

Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:29 pm
Inquirer wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:19 pm Once again I told you what was written, if you choose to react emotionally that's your choice but you won't get very far in any discussion by arguing from emotions rather than facts.
Now that's hilarious. You advocate a God that intentionally tortures and kills billions of babies, and then condemn any "emotional" reaction to that?

Do you appreciate how that make you look?
That God is in control and nothing happens that God does not permit, is central theme in scripture, that you regard that as committing "atrocities" is not really rational, how can the creator of something commit an atrocity against it? perhaps you've never considered such questions?
Ever see an abusive parent try that goofy and sick argument in court? "Well your Honor, since I created the child I cannot possibly commit any wrongs against it."
Perhaps you're not familiar with the deep philosophical challenges that arise and can only resort to emotions, I don't know but tough subjects require a tough mind.
Given the above, the irony of you trying to chastise me for not thinking this through is so thick it could be used to pave streets.

But as I said, if you want to believe in, love, and worship an entity that tortures and kills billions of babies, criticize any emotional reaction to that, and argue that if you make something you can do anything you want to it......well....

Sometimes the wisest thing to do in these situations is to give people like you the stage and let you speak for yourself.
Jose, all I did was tell you what is written and ask a question about a creator and what he does with what he creates.

Parents of children are not creators of those children (and since when did a biologist like yourself start calling biological reproduction "creation" you do realize that makes you a creationist !).

Parents are custodians Jose.

If you create a machine then you can also destroy it too, we do this all the time, humans create and destroy, surely this is a familiar notion to you?


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Re: Parasites and Darwin

Post #13

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:03 pm Jose, all I did was tell you what is written and ask a question about a creator and what he does with what he creates.
LOL....a bit more than that.

When presented with the argument that by ID creationist standards, a god must have deliberately "designed" the plasmodium parasite, you quoted the Bible as saying that yessir, God does indeed do that, and then you chastised me for reacting negatively and argued that since God made humans, he can do anything he wants with them, including torturing and killing babies.
Parents of children are not creators of those children (and since when did a biologist like yourself start calling biological reproduction "creation" you do realize that makes you a creationist !).

Parents are custodians Jose.

If you create a machine then you can also destroy it too, we do this all the time, humans create and destroy, surely this is a familiar notion to you?
Like I said, if you want to make those arguments, go right ahead. In fact, I think you should broadcast them far and wide, all under the banner of Christianity. The ratio of conversions to rejections you get would be interesting to say the least.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: Parasites and Darwin

Post #14

Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:23 pm
Inquirer wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:03 pm Jose, all I did was tell you what is written and ask a question about a creator and what he does with what he creates.
LOL....a bit more than that.

When presented with the argument that by ID creationist standards, a god must have deliberately "designed" the plasmodium parasite, you quoted the Bible as saying that yessir, God does indeed do that, and then you chastised me for reacting negatively and argued that since God made humans, he can do anything he wants with them, including torturing and killing babies.
Parents of children are not creators of those children (and since when did a biologist like yourself start calling biological reproduction "creation" you do realize that makes you a creationist !).

Parents are custodians Jose.

If you create a machine then you can also destroy it too, we do this all the time, humans create and destroy, surely this is a familiar notion to you?
Like I said, if you want to make those arguments, go right ahead. In fact, I think you should broadcast them far and wide, all under the banner of Christianity. The ratio of conversions to rejections you get would be interesting to say the least.
Which "arguments" are you referring to?

Here are the responses I've posted to you regarding this:

First:
Yes, God does indeed cause calamity and suffering, it even states that clearly in scripture, why are you unaware of this? what made you think otherwise?
Second:
I don't frankly care how you interpret this Jose, I simply told you what is written and asked why you were unaware, please try to remain civil.
Third:
Yes remain civil please, after all that is an expectation made clear in the rules. Once again I told you what was written, if you choose to react emotionally that's your choice but you won't get very far in any discussion by arguing from emotions rather than facts.

That God is in control and nothing happens that God does not permit, is central theme in scripture, that you regard that as committing "atrocities" is not really rational, how can the creator of something commit an atrocity against it? perhaps you've never considered such questions?

Perhaps you're not familiar with the deep philosophical challenges that arise and can only resort to emotions, I don't know but tough subjects require a tough mind.
Fourth and finally:
Jose, all I did was tell you what is written and ask a question about a creator and what he does with what he creates.

Parents of children are not creators of those children (and since when did a biologist like yourself start calling biological reproduction "creation" you do realize that makes you a creationist !).

Parents are custodians Jose.

If you create a machine then you can also destroy it too, we do this all the time, humans create and destroy, surely this is a familiar notion to you?
If you disagree with something I said then please clearly state the reason for your disagreement.

If you think God as creator of this universe can commit an "atrocity" then argue your case rationally, state the premises and the logic.

It is frankly absurd for a materialist atheist to even use "atrocity" given that whatever happens in nature is the result of laws of nature, how can systems acting in accordance with natural laws do anything other than what they do do?

You've done this before, argue that the universe is made of unfeeling, uncaring forces, molecules and that life exists as it does because of these unfeeling uncaring forces and then express outrage at things that happen naturally!

You an evolutionist are blaming the products of that evolution process, but shouldn't you really be blaming the process?

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Re: Parasites and Darwin

Post #15

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:17 pm If you disagree with something I said then please clearly state the reason for your disagreement.
Like I said, if you want to believe in, love, and worship a God that tortures and kills babies by the billions, that's your issue. IOW, this isn't about a disagreement per se, it's about taking what you believe and expressing how sick and twisted it is.

It's like when I see ISIS doing terrible things and a Muslim tells me that's how Islam works. I don't "disagree" with them, I just note how messed up it is.
If you think God as creator of this universe can commit an "atrocity" then argue your case rationally, state the premises and the logic.
Ah, I see....you're of the belief that the gods can do whatever they want and whatever they do cannot ever said to be wrong. I guess then if a god told you to kill people, you would do it, eh?
It is frankly absurd for a materialist atheist to even use "atrocity" given that whatever happens in nature is the result of laws of nature, how can systems acting in accordance with natural laws do anything other than what they do do?

You've done this before, argue that the universe is made of unfeeling, uncaring forces, molecules and that life exists as it does because of these unfeeling uncaring forces and then express outrage at things that happen naturally!

You an evolutionist are blaming the products of that evolution process, but shouldn't you really be blaming the process?
Nah, I'm not interested in the "if you don't believe in gods, then you can't say anything is wrong or immoral" thing. That too has been done to death.

As noted in another thread today....y'all really need new arguments....desperately so.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: Parasites and Darwin

Post #16

Post by Rose2020 »

I think the answer is certainly not simple. I can only think that the balance of nature is such and the laws of physics such, that what we see as cruelty cannot be avoided. An unbelievable infinitely creative mind created all of life including us upon a planet He prepared especially. Life needs air, water, food. Thus the great balance must be maintained and must progress.

This is far above me to understand, but I can guess a bit. After all, look what we do, we are the cruelest of all living things. Anything that parasites and such do by instinctual programming, we can rival by deliberate intent. We blow each other up to bits, torture, kill, just to maintain territorial rights.

It is a huge question, which overwhelms me, but how else could life exist and evolve without survival of the fittest? I see no clash between evolution and God. I am not clever enough to argue that anyway!

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Re: Parasites and Darwin

Post #17

Post by Clownboat »

Rose2020 wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:22 am This is far above me to understand, but I can guess a bit. After all, look what we do, we are the cruelest of all living things. Anything that parasites and such do by instinctual programming, we can rival by deliberate intent. We blow each other up to bits, torture, kill, just to maintain territorial rights.

Yet ironically, religions are some of the most devisive mechanism we have. They try to teach love, while justifying genocide.

Only when parents stop telling their children that there is a god that loves them so much as to send them to heaven, yet hates another so much as to send them to a hell will we ever stop the violence and bloodshed caused by such teachings.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

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Re: Parasites and Darwin

Post #18

Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:33 pm
Inquirer wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:17 pm If you disagree with something I said then please clearly state the reason for your disagreement.
Like I said, if you want to believe in, love, and worship a God that tortures and kills babies by the billions, that's your issue. IOW, this isn't about a disagreement per se, it's about taking what you believe and expressing how sick and twisted it is.

It's like when I see ISIS doing terrible things and a Muslim tells me that's how Islam works. I don't "disagree" with them, I just note how messed up it is.
If you think God as creator of this universe can commit an "atrocity" then argue your case rationally, state the premises and the logic.
Ah, I see....you're of the belief that the gods can do whatever they want and whatever they do cannot ever said to be wrong. I guess then if a god told you to kill people, you would do it, eh?
It is frankly absurd for a materialist atheist to even use "atrocity" given that whatever happens in nature is the result of laws of nature, how can systems acting in accordance with natural laws do anything other than what they do do?

You've done this before, argue that the universe is made of unfeeling, uncaring forces, molecules and that life exists as it does because of these unfeeling uncaring forces and then express outrage at things that happen naturally!

You an evolutionist are blaming the products of that evolution process, but shouldn't you really be blaming the process?
Nah, I'm not interested in the "if you don't believe in gods, then you can't say anything is wrong or immoral" thing. That too has been done to death.

As noted in another thread today....y'all really need new arguments....desperately so.
As you wish.

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Re: Parasites and Darwin

Post #19

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Inquirer wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:03 pm Parents of children are not creators of those children (and since when did a biologist like yourself start calling biological reproduction "creation" you do realize that makes you a creationist !).
Then what's all that child support about?
Parents are custodians Jose.
And cooks, and chauffeurs, and the dreaded bank, among other roles.
If you create a machine then you can also destroy it too, we do this all the time, humans create and destroy, surely this is a familiar notion to you?
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Re: Parasites and Darwin

Post #20

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Rose2020 wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 9:26 am Entymology interests me and I have been reading a lot recently. I am both fascinated and horrified especially at the things that parasites do, not only to humans but within insect and animal lives. There truly is appalling stuff going on! Like organisms slowly eating other organisms alive.

I read that Darwin himself had a real crisis of conscience about this. He wondered how a loving creator could have done made this so.

I too am pondering on this, as a committed Christian. How in this world everything consumes everything. In my humble opinion I trust that this must be the only way the balance of nature can be maintained. Yet did it have to be so very cruel? I cannot blame people for doubting God.
Animals can't fix carbon, so rely ultimately on things that either can fix it, or on things that've eaten things that can fix it.

It's only cruel if it's you the one that's getting eaten.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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