Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #269]

If my comment helps, fine and if not, I am okay with that as well.

I myself see no relevance to the debate challenge "Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?" it is focused upon a creator and it has not yet been established that we even exist within a creation...so The Razor need be applied to answering that question first.

Cut to that chase first...

Your point is noted, and appreciated. But since no one yet, seems to be able to demonstrate the mere existence of such a God, we are stuck with these side-bar conversations

If everyone was drawn to the same expressed god, then maybe we would have something to explore? However, this particular flavor of an asserted god seems quite fickle, in who he deems worthy of 'zapping' to be drawn to him.?.?

[kjw47]

Satan cause any to fall.

This could only happen to the ones for which God did not cause to be inexorably drawn to Him, or the ones for which God decides not to change their hearts. So why does He just not do it for all, instead of just some? If being inexorably drawn to Him, and having your heart changed, makes it impossible not to follow, then just "zap" everyone.

1/3 of the angels fell to his deceptions.

Again, then maybe this is because the other 2/3's were inexorably drawn to Him, and the other 2/3's of their hearts were changed. Why not just do this to the last 1/3 as well? Answer... There is no sane reason. Once god intervenes upon their free will, which you stated God does, many replies ago, they will all perform God's desired outcome.

He tried to make Jesus fall in the wilderness.

Right. And because He was inexorably drawn to Him, Satan was not successful.

God doesnt change ones heart.

This is false.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me"

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. "

"I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart."

etc etc etc..................

The individual must change their hearts by learning and applying every utterance from God.

This is false. You already agreed that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him. You also already agreed that God changes hearts. Once these two things are done, by God, then your above statement will happen --- (every time, if this is actually what God wants/desires).

Yes God will change hearts, but they can still fall. One must be serving the true God to get their heart changed-1 single religion-99% are false religions, those do not have God, it is satan posing as those gods. God draws the good hearts. 2Timothy 3 is todays hearts for 99%.

Okay, now you are just being silly.

If you agree God can BOTH 1) cause some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, and also 2) change hearts; then such individuals, who He has selected, will not fail in His desired requests.

Your above answer, again is complete nonsense; unless you now wish to redact what you agreed with prior. (i.e.)

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Because most hearts are haughty, filled with pride and refuse to change. God sees those hearts clearly. All have this heart within-Jeremiah 17:9--The heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it. Many let that heart rule their lives. It causes them to reason many false reasonings that they live in as truth.

[POI]

Satan cause any to fall.

This could only happen to the ones for which God did not cause to be inexorably drawn to Him, or the ones for which God decides not to change their hearts. So why does He just not do it for all, instead of just some? If being inexorably drawn to Him, and having your heart changed, makes it impossible not to follow, then just "zap" everyone.

1/3 of the angels fell to his deceptions.

Again, then maybe this is because the other 2/3's were inexorably drawn to Him, and the other 2/3's of their hearts were changed. Why not just do this to the last 1/3 as well? Answer... There is no sane reason. Once god intervenes upon their free will, which you stated God does, many replies ago, they will all perform God's desired outcome.

He tried to make Jesus fall in the wilderness.

Right. And because He was inexorably drawn to Him, Satan was not successful.

God doesnt change ones heart.

This is false.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me"

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. "

"I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart."

etc etc etc..................

The individual must change their hearts by learning and applying every utterance from God.

This is false. You already agreed that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him. You also already agreed that God changes hearts. Once these two things are done, by God, then your above statement will happen --- (every time, if this is actually what God wants/desires).

Yes God will change hearts, but they can still fall. One must be serving the true God to get their heart changed-1 single religion-99% are false religions, those do not have God, it is satan posing as those gods. God draws the good hearts. 2Timothy 3 is todays hearts for 99%.

Okay, now you are just being silly.

If you agree God can BOTH 1) cause some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, and also 2) change hearts; then such individuals, who He has selected, will not fail in His desired requests.

Your above answer, again is complete nonsense; unless you now wish to redact what you agreed with prior. (i.e.)

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Because most hearts are haughty, filled with pride and refuse to change. God sees those hearts clearly. All have this heart within-Jeremiah 17:9--The heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it. Many let that heart rule their lives. It causes them to reason many false reasonings that they live in as truth.

It is clear that either:

A) You do not understand
B) You are playing games

Either way, I think we might be done here....

[kjw47]

Satan cause any to fall.

This could only happen to the ones for which God did not cause to be inexorably drawn to Him, or the ones for which God decides not to change their hearts. So why does He just not do it for all, instead of just some? If being inexorably drawn to Him, and having your heart changed, makes it impossible not to follow, then just "zap" everyone.

1/3 of the angels fell to his deceptions.

Again, then maybe this is because the other 2/3's were inexorably drawn to Him, and the other 2/3's of their hearts were changed. Why not just do this to the last 1/3 as well? Answer... There is no sane reason. Once god intervenes upon their free will, which you stated God does, many replies ago, they will all perform God's desired outcome.

He tried to make Jesus fall in the wilderness.

Right. And because He was inexorably drawn to Him, Satan was not successful.

God doesnt change ones heart.

This is false.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me"

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. "

"I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart."

etc etc etc..................

The individual must change their hearts by learning and applying every utterance from God.

This is false. You already agreed that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him. You also already agreed that God changes hearts. Once these two things are done, by God, then your above statement will happen --- (every time, if this is actually what God wants/desires).

Yes God will change hearts, but they can still fall. One must be serving the true God to get their heart changed-1 single religion-99% are false religions, those do not have God, it is satan posing as those gods. God draws the good hearts. 2Timothy 3 is todays hearts for 99%.

Okay, now you are just being silly.

If you agree God can BOTH 1) cause some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, and also 2) change hearts; then such individuals, who He has selected, will not fail in His desired requests.

Your above answer, again is complete nonsense; unless you now wish to redact what you agreed with prior. (i.e.)

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Because most hearts are haughty, filled with pride and refuse to change. God sees those hearts clearly. All have this heart within-Jeremiah 17:9--The heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it. Many let that heart rule their lives. It causes them to reason many false reasonings that they live in as truth.

It is clear that either:

A) You do not understand
B) You are playing games

Either way, I think we might be done here....

Its clear you do not understand. Solomon did everything God asked for years because of a good heart, but then threw aside a single statute-Do not marry foreign wives, but he did and fell to false god worship at his end. It does not say he repented of that. Peter a hand picked apostle denied knowing Jesus 3 x out of fear of men even after all he saw Jesus do, he fell, but he stood back up quickly. Same with King David, he did all that God commanded, but then cheated with Bathsheba and sent her husband to his death- a sin worthy of being stoned to death back then, but he repented and God forgave him, but was still punished for those acts. Any can fall, 1/3 of the angels, created perfect fell. So any can fall. If God knows its a waste of time for certain hearts why would he bother, Its adding bad association that could cause others to fall.

[William]

[Replying to POI in post #269]

If my comment helps, fine and if not, I am okay with that as well.

I myself see no relevance to the debate challenge "Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?" it is focused upon a creator and it has not yet been established that we even exist within a creation...so The Razor need be applied to answering that question first.

Cut to that chase first...

Your point is noted, and appreciated. But since no one yet, seems to be able to demonstrate the mere existence of such a God, we are stuck with these side-bar conversations

Each to their own on that count.
I decided upon reaching that conclusion, that any further interaction which resulted in my being stuck with these side-bar conversations, was simply my own silly fault.

If everyone was drawn to the same expressed god, then maybe we would have something to explore?

Since that isn't the case, we shall never know, but it still wouldn't answer the first question which needs to be asked.
Perhaps if one asks theists for evidence we exist within a creation, one might be in a better position to avoid altogether, the side-bar conversations re personal beliefs and biblical interpretations on "the claimed nature of the creator"

However, this particular flavor of an asserted god seems quite fickle, in who he deems worthy of 'zapping' to be drawn to him.?.?

Obviously more a question of mind science than material science...but like I said...

[POI]

Solomon did everything God asked for years because of a good heart, but then threw aside a single statute-Do not marry foreign wives, but he did and fell to false god worship at his end. It does not say he repented of that. Peter a hand picked apostle denied knowing Jesus 3 x out of fear of men even after all he saw Jesus do, he fell, but he stood back up quickly. Same with King David, he did all that God commanded, but then cheated with Bathsheba and sent her husband to his death- a sin worthy of being stoned to death back then, but he repented and God forgave him, but was still punished for those acts. Any can fall, 1/3 of the angels, created perfect fell. So any can fall. If God knows its a waste of time for certain hearts why would he bother, Its adding bad association that could cause others to fall.

Then God did not cause Solomon to become inexorably drawn to Him. Why? Because if He did, it would be impossible for Solomon to waiver and fail.

Then God did not change Solomon's heart. Why? Because if He did change Solomon's heart, God would cause Solomon to do everything He asks (i.e.) --> "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." Ez. 36:27

As to the rest of your examples, it's all the same....

YET AGAIN, God implements cause to some, and not others. Just cause all!

So apparently, God does not want me to know He exists.

[POI]

Perhaps if one asks theists for evidence we exist within a creation, one might be in a better position to avoid altogether, the side-bar conversations re personal beliefs and biblical interpretations on "the claimed nature of the creator"

Do you have any input on this matter?

[kjw47]

Solomon did everything God asked for years because of a good heart, but then threw aside a single statute-Do not marry foreign wives, but he did and fell to false god worship at his end. It does not say he repented of that. Peter a hand picked apostle denied knowing Jesus 3 x out of fear of men even after all he saw Jesus do, he fell, but he stood back up quickly. Same with King David, he did all that God commanded, but then cheated with Bathsheba and sent her husband to his death- a sin worthy of being stoned to death back then, but he repented and God forgave him, but was still punished for those acts. Any can fall, 1/3 of the angels, created perfect fell. So any can fall. If God knows its a waste of time for certain hearts why would he bother, Its adding bad association that could cause others to fall.

Then God did not cause Solomon to become inexorably drawn to Him. Why? Because if He did, it would be impossible for Solomon to waiver and fail.

Then God did not change Solomon's heart. Why? Because if He did change Solomon's heart, God would cause Solomon to do everything He asks (i.e.) --> "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." Ez. 36:27

As to the rest of your examples, it's all the same....

YET AGAIN, God implements cause to some, and not others. Just cause all!

So apparently, God does not want me to know He exists.

No you are wrong--Free will makes it possible for any to fall or stand. Jesus death opened the door to all. It takes believing Jesus over errors. My post-The real Jesus points to who actually listens to him. You have free will-listen to him or not. If you do listen and show a desire, God will help you.

[POI]

Solomon did everything God asked for years because of a good heart, but then threw aside a single statute-Do not marry foreign wives, but he did and fell to false god worship at his end. It does not say he repented of that. Peter a hand picked apostle denied knowing Jesus 3 x out of fear of men even after all he saw Jesus do, he fell, but he stood back up quickly. Same with King David, he did all that God commanded, but then cheated with Bathsheba and sent her husband to his death- a sin worthy of being stoned to death back then, but he repented and God forgave him, but was still punished for those acts. Any can fall, 1/3 of the angels, created perfect fell. So any can fall. If God knows its a waste of time for certain hearts why would he bother, Its adding bad association that could cause others to fall.

Then God did not cause Solomon to become inexorably drawn to Him. Why? Because if He did, it would be impossible for Solomon to waiver and fail.

Then God did not change Solomon's heart. Why? Because if He did change Solomon's heart, God would cause Solomon to do everything He asks (i.e.) --> "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." Ez. 36:27

As to the rest of your examples, it's all the same....

YET AGAIN, God implements cause to some, and not others. Just cause all!

So apparently, God does not want me to know He exists.

No you are wrong--Free will makes it possible for any to fall or stand. Jesus death opened the door to all. It takes believing Jesus over errors. My post-The real Jesus points to who actually listens to him. You have free will-listen to him or not. If you do listen and show a desire, God will help you.

You obviously do not know your own Bible.

[JoeyKnothead]

No you are wrong--Free will makes it possible for any to fall or stand. Jesus death opened the door to all. It takes believing Jesus over errors. My post-The real Jesus points to who actually listens to him. You have free will-listen to him or not. If you do listen and show a desire, God will help you.

You can't even show human / god hybrids are possible, much less that Jesus, an alleged hybrid,, even ever existed to've uttered a word.

Less preaching, and more truthing might help you make your case convincing to anyone but the gullible.