Let's pretend...

[Tcg]

.

...that any of the arguments for god are valid. We have to pretend of course because they are horrible. But, if one established that a god created us, them, the universe and whatever else, what reason would there be to conclude that creator is still around?

As I like to present for example, maybe god was given a chemistry set for Christmas one year and he accidentally blew himself up. Then his bits and pieces and those of the chemistry set become the universe. There'd be no more god any more.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

don't worry.like the devil, if there was no God around it would be necewssary to invent one.

Created in our own (various) image, of course.

on the other hand, we could praise and worship whoever gave him the chemistry set.

[Diagoras]

But, if one established that a god created us, them, the universe and whatever else, what reason would there be to conclude that creator is still around?

Tricky...

Proving the affirmative - that a creator is still around - would seem to rest on providing some strong evidence for God's influence today. Such evidence would of course have to be stronger than alternative, non-divine explanations. For example, some people still ascribe earthquakes to "God's will", but there's an impressive body of evidence that shows them to be wholly natural phenomena.

There are many people who claim to 'know' God and to have a personal relationship with him. Unless they could somehow demonstrate that relationship was real, not imaginary, it's difficult to see how a strong case could be made on this basis.

Miracles would perhaps be the strongest line to pursue in this regard, although this forum has had more than a few threads on them, and even given a medically-certified modern miracle, that doesn't necessarily point exclusively to God being the cause. It could be any other god or group of supernatural entities.

On the other hand, proving the negative is notoriously difficult too. Just because no evidence of an invisible dragon in my garage exists doesn't mean it's not there...

[Tcg]

But, if one established that a god created us, them, the universe and whatever else, what reason would there be to conclude that creator is still around?

Tricky...

Proving the affirmative - that a creator is still around - would seem to rest on providing some strong evidence for God's influence today. Such evidence would of course have to be stronger than alternative, non-divine explanations. For example, some people still ascribe earthquakes to "God's will", but there's an impressive body of evidence that shows them to be wholly natural phenomena.

There are many people who claim to 'know' God and to have a personal relationship with him. Unless they could somehow demonstrate that relationship was real, not imaginary, it's difficult to see how a strong case could be made on this basis.

Miracles would perhaps be the strongest line to pursue in this regard, although this forum has had more than a few threads on them, and even given a medically-certified modern miracle, that doesn't necessarily point exclusively to God being the cause. It could be any other god or group of supernatural entities.

On the other hand, proving the negative is notoriously difficult too. Just because no evidence of an invisible dragon in my garage exists doesn't mean it's not there...

Very good points and I wasn't suggesting this as evidence against a god, but rather that the arguments for the existence of a creator god wouldn't necessarily lead to the Christian God even if they were valid. They wouldn't even establish that the creator was still alive. I have an old cowboy style leather wallet that was made by a friend of mine in the 70's. That wallet doesn't establish that he is still alive.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

.

...that any of the arguments for god are valid. We have to pretend of course because they are horrible. But, if one established that a god created us, them, the universe and whatever else, what reason would there be to conclude that creator is still around?

As I like to present for example, maybe god was given a chemistry set for Christmas one year and he accidentally blew himself up. Then his bits and pieces and those of the chemistry set become the universe. There'd be no more god any more.


Tcg

re. the OP question, it rather follows the actual debate. It was assumed that a god created everything, not because (as per the OP) we'd found evidence that it had been created, but because nobody could imagine any other way it could come to be (setting aside the whole political-instinct tribal gods and their man -made religions...come on theists, you know this is true), we jump past the Enlightnment where aristos and high ranking churchmen rightly had a date with Madame Guillotine, and 19th century science where they could still protest that deep time geology was the way God did it, to the discovery of DNA, really where for the first time we could really say, with prof. Hawking "God.Is.Not. Neser-zarry". The evolution debate is Over, done and dusted. I know there are denialists that can present specious arguments and nit -picks. So can Flat earthists, but it is Over. As regards evidence. And the only case for an Intelligent Creator is Cosmic origins with some aspects of Constants (e.g the basic cosmic number which is reallt an argument from ignorance - we don't know why there is a cosmic number of 4·3251 or whatever, but that doesn't mean the answer won't be 'natural' if and when we find out. And the Goldilocks zone, to which we can partly say, the universe and earth was not made for you and me, it was made to kill us, mostly, and came close to doing it, too. Life managed to cling by its' fingernails during snowball earth, Mammals would never evolve beyond shrews were it not for the asteroid hit (and now seems proven) wiping out the dinosaurs, and the Ice age pretty near did for us, too, but Ingenuity enabled us to get through it.

But yes, there is the Goldilocks zone. But then there is with most stars, and there may be many planets that are in that zone that aren't gas giants or so small they lose their atmosphere. And chemical evolution (yes, there is such a thing) pretty much guarantees that Life (given that the universe is full of biochemicals and water) is not so unlikely as you need a god to make it happen, no more than evolution needs a god to make it work.

So we have been lucky. But the odds really aren't that bad. Oh, yes, and the 'odds against' apologetic is flawed, or rather back to front, like pretty much all theists arguments. It is flawed because assuming a Plan that Random Chance has to reach without Intelligence of course will be impossible. But no end plan makes it inevitable that the end result will be whatever it is. Faith in ourselves as the final supreme creation (while still being vile sinners worthy only of eternal torment) of a Creator skews the whole argument, just as Godfaith skews ALL these Theist arguments and makes they all logically invalid to begin with.

So, until relatively recently, an Intelligent creator was still a fair option, but DNA pretty much answered most of the questions, and apologetics (including argument from Morality) and really there is only one serious gap for god left - Cosmic origins, and I think there is a logical rebut for that, too.

There is no serious case for a god, never mind any man - made god of a man -made religion.

[1213]

...what reason would there be to conclude that creator is still around?
...

For me the reason is, I don't think I would have remained here all this time without God. Yes, probably not good for any atheist, but you asked one reason and that is one of my reasons.

[brunumb]

...what reason would there be to conclude that creator is still around?
...

For me the reason is, I don't think I would have remained here all this time without God. Yes, probably not good for any atheist, but you asked one reason and that is one of my reasons.

What does remaining around for a long time have to do with God? Do all those people who only remained around for a very short time therefore indicate that God is no longer around? Your reason has no merit.

[TRANSPONDER]

...what reason would there be to conclude that creator is still around?
...

For me the reason is, I don't think I would have remained here all this time without God. Yes, probably not good for any atheist, but you asked one reason and that is one of my reasons.

Odd that what is supposed ti be a 'God is my strength' argument sounds like weakness "I couldn't get through the day without drink". That's what it sounds like. I get through the day without God. In fact I may find it easier to cope because i don't expect Jesus to be driving.

[Tcg]

...what reason would there be to conclude that creator is still around?
...

For me the reason is, I don't think I would have remained here all this time without God. Yes, probably not good for any atheist, but you asked one reason and that is one of my reasons.

Why do you repeatedly try to make it an issue about atheists? You've failed to explain how you being around still is evidence of God. Any reasonable person atheist or otherwise would not accept this as a valid reason. All you've presented is your belief. The fact that you believe something is not evidence that what you believe is true. Why do you believe what you believe and how is that evidence that creator god (assuming there ever was one) is still alive.


Tcg

[Tcg]

don't worry.like the devil, if there was no God around it would be necewssary to invent one.

Created in our own (various) image, of course.

on the other hand, we could praise and worship whoever gave him the chemistry set.

Well, the self-existent one was (before his demise) also the self-gifting one.


Tcg