Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

[POI]

For many atheists, the go-to topic for debate, is "divine hiddenness". I do not see it spoke about much here? I figured it would be worthy of discussion. Below is a theist's response/rebuttal to the argument:



For Debate:

1. In claim #1, the theist states Abraham, Joseph, and Jesus have their requests ultimately fulfilled at a later date. Why do countless victims of rape, torture, AND murder go unfulfilled in their requests to be saved?

2. In claim #2, the theist states hiddenness does seem to promote a relationship in the long run. This is clearly not the case, as many will die as atheists -- (likely me, unless He is going to reveal Himself to me later in a way for which I will not doubt His mere existence).

3. In claim #3, God remains hidden from the ones who would rebel. I guess this means if I never feel I received His presence, then that means I would have rebelled anyways? Well then, should I ignore the Bible, where He presented Himself to many who reject Him then?

I'll stop here... The theist mentions other stuff, but nothing seemingly worthy of intellectual discussion.

I hope you theists can come up with BETTER reasons than the ones given in the video?

Or, in conclusion, apply Occam's Razor for the following question: Why doesn't God intervene, when prayed upon, where ultimate finite tragedy strikes?

A): Because God does not exist... One assumption

OR

B): God does exist, but.... Commence additional assumptions

******************************

A) needs only one assumption, B) needs more....

[POI]

... If all rape/murder continues, it's safe to assume this god does not exist.

I don't think murder and rape continues. It seems to me that you think God should take freedom from the people and punish them before they do anything wrong. Would you like to be punished from something that you have not yet done?

Maybe you misunderstood? The fact many are raped and murdered, means there is likely no god there to intervene. Remember, you stated that you would intervene, if you know a rape/murder was taking place. And so would I. So why doesn't god? Well, because there is likely no such god there to react.

[TRANSPONDER]

... If all rape/murder continues, it's safe to assume this god does not exist.

I don't think murder and rape continues. It seems to me that you think God should take freedom from the people and punish them before they do anything wrong. Would you like to be punished from something that you have not yet done?

Maybe you misunderstood? The fact many are raped and murdered, means there is likely no god there to intervene. Remember, you stated that you would intervene, if you know a rape/murder was taking place. And so would I. So why doesn't god? Well, because there is likely no such god there to react.

I am left quite bewildered - do they really get it all wrong, or is it all feigned?

[1213]

....if you know a rape/murder was taking place. And so would I. So why doesn't god?....

Doesn't all murder and rape end? Is there still some ongoing murder or rape that should be ended? Please tell where.

[1213]

...Arguing that a supposed existing and able God letting evil continue and doing nothing about it is unfeasible and better explanation is that there is no god there and we are on our own.

What has that to do with punishing everyone whether they did anything wrong or not?

God has given freedom to people. That is why it is possible that people do evil things. And I think it is good that God gave freedom. But I don't see any good reason to claim evil continues forever. That is why I think it can't be said God allows evil to continue.

[1213]

...
Romans 3:9
No One Is Righteous
What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

Do you not know or not accept the Biblical idea of everyone being innate sinful from Adam and because of Adam?

I think this depends on what is meant with sin. If sin means separation from God or that person rejects God, then it can be said that people are in sinful state because of Adam and Eve. Because of them, people were expelled to this first death, where we are born in separation from God, in sin. If that is what is meant with sin, then I accept the idea. But in that case it is not a permanent state. People can get the connection back to God and reject sin. So, what is meant with sin? If it means something else than what I said here, then I don't think it is because of Adam and Eve. And I don't think your claim can be supported with Bible.

Paul defines righteous in Romans 3 as a person who understands and seeks after God. Maybe that is true, no one seeks God. But, what if person finds God even without seeking Him and accepts God then? Is that person then still unrighteous? I don't think so.

As it is written, “There is no one righteous. No, not one. There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.
Romans 3:10-11

[1213]

... If all rape/murder continues, it's safe to assume this god does not exist.

I don't think murder and rape continues.

Never heard of the Catholic Church?
You are free to think what you want, but know this, I doubt there is anyone on this forum that respects what you just wrote.

Are you saying that rape and murder continues in Catholic Church? Please provide evidence for this so that I can do something to stop it. If you can't provide evidence, do you think it is respectful to make false accusations?

[TRANSPONDER]

...Arguing that a supposed existing and able God letting evil continue and doing nothing about it is unfeasible and better explanation is that there is no god there and we are on our own.

What has that to do with punishing everyone whether they did anything wrong or not?

God has given freedom to people. That is why it is possible that people do evil things. And I think it is good that God gave freedom. But I don't see any good reason to claim evil continues forever. That is why I think it can't be said God allows evil to continue.

Freedom is just an excuse for Bible God -apologists to shove the blame onto man. Now I seem to recall that you don't subscribe to divine punishment which makes things easier for you but moves your mindset nearer to the humanist line - we are on our own. But the fact is that in the Bible, God overrode free will when it suited him, and intervened quite heavily when it was convenient (1), therefore I say that free will is an excuse and evasion for explaining why God doesn't DO something about this mess.

You know the answers because you've surely seen them before:

Either God doesn't care, or God or does give a damn, but is not the perfectly Good God that you would prefer to believe in or there are no gods and we are on our own and frankly even if the Bible was halfway credible, I'd be convinced there was no god, simply because of the lack of any real evidence of a god that cares tuppence about anything going on, and the Free Will excuse is just that - not a reason to think there is a god but an attempt to evade the compelling conclusion that there isn't.

(1) this is just an aside and noting to do with our pal's post other than a possible 'cue Bibletext smokescreen'. You -wall may have seen it, in fact it popped up recently where a point about Jesus praising the Xtra faith of the Tyrian woman was 'explained' by posting the passage. Well, we know what she (Biblically) did but the point was the greater Faith of this Canaanite woman, and the way she talked him around was irrelevant. Well, that might simply have been the poster not seeing the wood for the trees, rather than a deliberate smokescreen, but a memorably crafty, evasive and denialist Bible apologist (former board) tried to get over Luke contradicting John over douibling Thomas by posting the whole John passage and saying 'there is no contradi8ction'. well clearly that was just impidence, but an similar thing would be like countering God overriding Pharoah's Free will by posting the Moses passage and saying 'That explains it'. Now, Faith that it somehow does explain it does not get over this being no explanation but a smokescreen, and one that gets used not too unusually.
e
Thought yew all might be interested, and not saying 1235 did this or would do it, bu I'm just blocking any possibility of it. Hopefully.

[Clownboat]

... If all rape/murder continues, it's safe to assume this god does not exist.

I don't think murder and rape continues.

Never heard of the Catholic Church?
You are free to think what you want, but know this, I doubt there is anyone on this forum that respects what you just wrote.

Are you saying that rape and murder continues in Catholic Church? Please provide evidence for this so that I can do something to stop it. If you can't provide evidence, do you think it is respectful to make false accusations?

Here is your evidence:
Catholic Priests Abused 1,000 Children in Pennsylvania - 2018 - (Yup, Pennsylvania alone!)

The report, which covered six of the state’s eight Catholic dioceses and found more than 1,000 identifiable victims, is the broadest examination yet by a government agency in the United States of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/c ... vania.html

It is very telling that you claim that you would do something to stop it, and not your god. I don't see your god concept doing anything on this world, stopping Catholic preists from raping included.

[POI]

....if you know a rape/murder was taking place. And so would I. So why doesn't god?....

Doesn't all murder and rape end? Is there still some ongoing murder or rape that should be ended? Please tell where.

It's clear you are trying to wiggle your way out of an obvious conundrum. Both you and I would prevent or stop someone, for which was going to, or caught in the act of, rape and/or murder. Both you and I would do it every time we saw such act(s).

BUT, both you and I do not know where all these specific cases are going on and happening. A matter of fact, we hardly know where any of them are happening, unless both you and I hear about it after the fact, via the on the news or other... On the other hand, God is privy to it all rape/murder. And apparently, He does not stop all of it. So you are left to face the following conundrum:

A) God does not know or see all, just like you and I -- Which renders Him a puny god.
B) God does know or see all, but chooses not to stop most of it -- Which renders god not all loving - (by your own definition)
C) The Christian god likely does not exist.

Which answer does not involve a conundrum?

[brunumb]

....if you know a rape/murder was taking place. And so would I. So why doesn't god?....

Doesn't all murder and rape end? Is there still some ongoing murder or rape that should be ended? Please tell where.

I don't understand why you can't get the point being made. Any time a murder or rape is being committed, God knows about it. If you were able to intervene and assist the victim and prevent the crime I am assuming that as a decent, caring human being, you would. If God is decent and caring, why doesn't he? The never ending occurrences of murder and rape testify to the fact that he doesn't.