What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

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What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

Post #1

Post by William »

IF Adam and Eve had resisted the temptation to eat the forbidden fruit, would they have been permitted to do so eventually?

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Re: What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

Post #51

Post by William »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #47]
That is an observable reality of life now (no human has ever escaped death) but you are assuming that was God's original purpose.
Re the garden story, no assumption can or should be made about any supposed "original purpose" YHWH had, because this implies YHWH had another purpose for humans other than that they subdue the earth through multiplying the species through the sexual act of procreation.

Therefore
HOW DO WE KNOW DEATH WAS NOT PART OF GODS ORIGINAL PURPOSE FOR HUMANS?
Is a superfluous question which presumes an answer through equally superfluous assumption.
Continued human life was explicitly said to be limited by one thing, and one thing only, namely disobedience to God.
Obedience to YHWH would not change that thing. Rather it would change the way in which humans went about procreating and subduing the earth.
There is no mention of physical nature being a factor.
On the contrary - the story involves everything to do with the physical nature. The human form also being of physical nature.
There is no mention of physical nature being a factor. Other scriptures bear this out as Paul explained to the Romans

ROMANS 5:12

... through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned
Anything following after the garden story which is contrary, cannot be considered true because it is based upon misunderstanding and presumption about YHWH. In the case of Paul - many thousands of years after...presumption upon presumption creating a misrepresentation as a consequence.

Therefore, until one can agree to follow the garden storyline as it was presented - without presuming things which were not mentioned - one will misrepresent.
Death was not caused by one man, but by YHWH, who created the human form of that one man [and all subsequent humans] to have a use by date - to eventually die.

The evidence for this being the case, is in the garden story. YHWH prevented Adam from having access to the fruit of the tree of life, therefore Adam would die because the body Adam had, was designed to die unless it consumed the fruit of the tree of life.
Adam died because he sinned (broke Gods law) , ergo if Adam had not sinned he would not have died. If he had not sinned death would not have entered into the human experience (see above). Our physicality is irrelevant scripturally - the death we experience, according to scripture, is the result of human sinnfulness NOT because we are physical .
What in the garden would have prevented Adams body from dying?

The answer is in the story itself. If Adam had access to the tree of life, his body would not have died.

Otherwise his body would die.

ergo - YHWH - preventing that access, assured that Adams body would die.

It was not the sin which cause the death. It was the punishments of being denied access to the fruit which would keep the body alive indefinitely, which meant the only option was that the body would die - because YHWH had made the body that way.

ergo - you have been mislead and are being misleading...

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Re: What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

Post #52

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:19 pmAlthough I see you can't bring yourself to acknowledge god's omniscience...
I do acknowledge god's omniscience but that does not mean he is obliged to know everything in the future if he has no desire to do so. Logic dictates that an omniscient being that is also omnipotent must be able to direct and control his access to knowledge (including that of future events). God CAN know everthing, that does not mean that he always does.


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Re: What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

Post #53

Post by William »

William: I further questioned you on your reasoning. If what was once prohibited by YHWH is then allowed by YHWH, who are you to declare that YHWH is being contradictory?
I also pointed out that YHWH is biblically attributed as being able and willing to changing his mind about something

So far you have skirted around answering that question, so I see no way forward in this aspect of the debate until you support you assertion, since it is that assertion which has you declaring that the answer to the OPQ is "No."

Prove your assertion with scripture.

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #49]
Although God can and does occassionally change his mind regarding his judgements, he is unchangeable regarding his morality being "...the Father of the celestial lights, who does not vary or change..."(James 1:17). Eating from the tree represented rebellion against divine rulership and this could NEVER be considered right
Again, you are missing the mark because the OPQ clearly states that if Adam and Eve had of obeyed YHWH they would not have needed to be punished.
It has been established that the forbidden fruit had no intrinsic properties which would give anyone eating it, the knowledge of good and evil.

The fruit was a prop used by YHWH to show the propensity of the human being toward disobedience through curiosity, desire, wiliness to push back the boundaries and willingness to succumb to temptation.

These in turn made an opportunity for humans to be more willing to multiply and to subdue the earth than simply sitting around in a pocket of paradise naming things and be provided for and not multiplying or going out and subduing the rest of the earth...

All in all, the OPQ has to be answered in the affirmative because - had the couple obeyed YHWH, the fruit - being a prop anyway - was actually harmless so YHWH then saying "You can eat of that fruit now" would be reasonable.

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Re: What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

Post #54

Post by JehovahsWitness »

William wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:23 pm...Prove your assertion with scripture.
William wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:27 pm...In the case of Paul - many thousands of years after...presumption upon presumption creating a misrepresentation as a consequence.
You asked for scripture, I provided scripture.
William wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:43 pm...YHWH then saying "You can eat of that fruit now" would be reasonable.
I disagree.




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Romans 14:8

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Re: What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

Post #55

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:35 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:19 pmAlthough I see you can't bring yourself to acknowledge god's omniscience...
I do believe the God is omnicient but that does not mean he is obliged to know everything in the future if he has no desire to do so.
Actually, it does.

om·nis·cience
/ämˈniSH(ə)ns,ämˈnisēəns/
noun: omniscience
the state of knowing everything.
"the notion of divine omniscience"
Definitions from Oxford Languages

And guess what "everything" means.

eve·ry·thing
/ˈevrēˌTHiNG/
pronoun: everything
1. all things; all the things of a group or class.

_________________________________

omniscience
[ om-nish-uhns ]
noun
the quality or state of being omniscient.

And "omniscient"?

omniscient
[ om-nish-uhnt ]

having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

Source Dictionary.com
____________________________________


omniscience
noun [ U ]
/ɑːmˈnɪʃ.əns/ uk
/ɒmˈnɪs.i.əns/
the quality of having unlimited knowledge:
source Cambridge Dictionary

And defining "unlimited" we find.

unlimited
adjective
not limited; having the greatest possible amount, number, or level:


So let's not have anymore qualifying of the term to fit your theology. "Omniscience" stands as defined.

.

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Re: What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

Post #56

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:25 pm So let's not have anymore qualifying of the term to fit your theology. "Omniscience" stands as defined.

.
None of the above negates what I have said: One can have or possess something you don't use.
having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
If someone has (or possesses ) all the money in the world, is he obliged to spend it? If someone has all cars that exists do you have to drive them. If you have all the books in the world, do you have to read them? God's being "all knowing " (omniscient) is a description of his abilities, his nature it is a quality he possess rather than an exercise he is subject to.
the quality of having unlimited knowledge:
source Cambridge Dictionary
noun: omniscience
the state of knowing everything.
He is "all knowing" in the same way as He is "all powerful", ie there is nothing he cannot know or do. This does not mean NOT that there is nothing he does not know or do. This essentially amounts to God's omniscience being inherent.
To illustrate: The term omnivore stems from the Latin words omnis, meaning “all or everything,” and vorare, meaning “to devour or eat.” so the word literally means all eating. Does that mean an all eating creature (omnivore), such as a human, has to eat everything until he has eaten everything on earth? Does it not rather mean he can eat any type of food plant or meat based?
An all knowing God can know everything it doesn't necessarily mean he has to chose to. Chosing not to no more stops him from being all knowing in nature than turning down a steak dinner stops a man from being an omnivore.






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Romans 14:8

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Re: What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

Post #57

Post by William »

[JehovahsWitness post_id=1092481 time=1663706762 user_id=6111]
William wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:23 pm...Prove your assertion with scripture.
William wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:27 pmAnything following after the garden story which is contrary, cannot be considered true because it is based upon misunderstanding and presumption about YHWH. In the case of Paul - many thousands of years after...presumption upon presumption creating a misrepresentation as a consequence.

Therefore, until one can agree to follow the garden storyline as it was presented - without presuming things which were not mentioned - one will misrepresent.
Death was not caused by one man, but by YHWH, who created the human form of that one man [and all subsequent humans] to have a use by date - to eventually die.

The evidence for this being the case, is in the garden story. YHWH prevented Adam from having access to the fruit of the tree of life, therefore Adam would die because the body Adam had, was designed to die unless it consumed the fruit of the tree of life.
JehovahsWitness: You asked for scripture, I provided scripture.
Scripture specfic to the story under question...I would have been more specific but I figured you would go off on that tangent so allowed for that as it played nicely into my statement above.

William wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:43 pm.Again, you are missing the mark because the OPQ clearly states that if Adam and Eve had of obeyed YHWH they would not have needed to be punished.
It has been established that the forbidden fruit had no intrinsic properties which would give anyone eating it, the knowledge of good and evil.

The fruit was a prop used by YHWH to show the propensity of the human being toward disobedience through curiosity, desire, wiliness to push back the boundaries and willingness to succumb to temptation.

These in turn made an opportunity for humans to be more willing to multiply and to subdue the earth than simply sitting around in a pocket of paradise naming things and be provided for and not multiplying or going out and subduing the rest of the earth...

All in all, the OPQ has to be answered in the affirmative because - had the couple obeyed YHWH, the fruit - being a prop anyway - was actually harmless so YHWH then saying "You can eat of that fruit now" would be reasonable.
I disagree.
Indeed you do and I am not debating otherwise.

It is why you disagree, which I am debating and your not wanting to answer my statement above with anything other than "I disagree." isn't much of an attempt by you to debate my assertions.

I think it is clear that I have made the correct call in answering "Yes" to the OPQ.

______________________

To add my observations over and above that;

The reason I created this thread topic is linked to another topic I created re "The problem of evil"
as I would like to know where exactly the problem first became a problem.

Did the problem derive in the Hebrew camp [culture] or did it start in the Christian camp[culture]?

The evidence supports that the problem arose from the Christian culture.

Further to that, your interaction with Miles in this thread shows that you - as a Christian in the Christian culture - are willing to argue that YHWH is able to ignore his attribute of omniscience because if he was able to do so [through his attribute of omnipotence] then he could be excused for not knowing the outcomes of his own actions, as if those actions could be called into question and judged as 'evil' unless YHWH is able to ignore his attribute of omniscience.

That is false dichotomy.

There is no reason why YHWH would have to be considered "evil" for knowingly doing what he did and knowing that doing what he did would turn out the way that it did.
___________________________
Another observation linked to the subject matter [the garden story] is the Christian belief that before sin entered the world, the whole earth was a paradise.

The JW's rest the whole of their beliefs on this assumption and as a result, argue for something based upon misrepresentation of something else.

The scriptural evidence for the truth of my assertion here, is the garden story telling us that the earth required subduing and that is why YHWH created humans.

The evidence against the 'whole earth was a paradise' belief, is that something which is already paradise [The whole Earth as the Christians - including you - tell it] would have no need to be subdued.
______________________________
The third observation is that the Hebrews regard the garden story as a metaphor designed to parable a particular thing and it was never taken as literal.
The Christian culture chose to take the story literally and further contributed in creating the problem of evil through misrepresentation of YHWH.

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Re: What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

Post #58

Post by JehovahsWitness »

William wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:39 pm... Christian belief that before sin entered the world, the whole earth was a paradise. The JW's rest the whole of their beliefs on this assumption ...
Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe before sin entered the world, the whole earth was a paradise. The bible is quite clear on this, God planted the garden* and the Genesis account stipulated its boundaries. When Adam and Eve sinned they were put outside the garden which would not have been possible if the garden was everywhere.

* the word paradise basically means garden.



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Re: What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

Post #59

Post by William »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #58]

Thanks for the heads up. I misread your answer to Rose in Post #9 and conflated that with the Christian belief that the earth had once been a paradise. Generally the idea stems from the belief in the mythology that Satan had the task of keeping the original earth paradise in primary conditions to begin with, and failed, so the task was assigned to a new creation - human beings.

Still, my points stand. Are you going to tell me I misread you on those other points?

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Re: What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

Post #60

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:29 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:25 pm So let's not have anymore qualifying of the term to fit your theology. "Omniscience" stands as defined.

.
None of the above negates what I have said: One can have or possess something you don't use.
having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
If someone has (or possesses ) all the money in the world, is he obliged to spend it? If someone has all cars that exists do you have to drive them. If you have all the books in the world, do you have to read them? God's being "all knowing " (omniscient) is a description of his abilities, his nature it is a quality he possess rather than an exercise he is subject to.
the quality of having unlimited knowledge:
source Cambridge Dictionary
noun: omniscience
the state of knowing everything.
He is "all knowing" in the same way as He is "all powerful", ie there is nothing he cannot know or do. This does not mean NOT that there is nothing he does not know or do. This essentially amounts to God's omniscience being inherent.
To illustrate: The term omnivore stems from the Latin words omnis, meaning “all or everything,” and vorare, meaning “to devour or eat.” so the word literally means all eating. Does that mean an all eating creature (omnivore), such as a human, has to eat everything until he has eaten everything on earth? Does it not rather mean he can eat any type of food plant or meat based?
An all knowing God can know everything it doesn't necessarily mean he has to chose to. Chosing not to no more stops him from being all knowing in nature than turning down a steak dinner stops a man from being an omnivore.
As already said,


"Let's not have anymore qualifying of the term to fit your theology. "Omniscience" stands as defined"


Have a good day.

.

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