IF GOD SO LOVED "EVERYONE", THEN WHY DID HE HATE ESAU?

[Eddie Ramos]

It seems like John 3:16 is by far the most widely memorized verse among people who know anything about the Bible because it speaks about God loving the world. While this verse may seem like "good news" to everyone who reads it, it does not stand alone from the rest of the scriptures. No verse does.

So, as most people are glad to memorize that verse, what happens when they come across a verse like this?:

Romans 9:13 (KJV) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Malachi 1:2-3 (KJV)
2 I have loved you, saith the LORD.
Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us?
Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD:
yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau,
and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Psalms 5:5 (KJV)
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 11:5 (KJV)
5 The LORD trieth the righteous:
but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psalms 5:6 (KJV)
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing:
the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

How does John 3:16 look in light of these passages? Did God change? No, God does not change (Malachi 3:6). This teaches us that we can't just focus on John 3:16 and conclude that God's love for the world, in the giving of his Son, is actually not referring to every individual in the world (because there are passages that tell us about God hating others), but rather John 3:16 is referring to certain people within the world. These certain people are also known as God's beloved which means to be loved.

1 John 4:10-11 (KJV) 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

The beloved are thise who were chosen for salvation, those who were called to be saints.

Romans 1:7 (KJV) 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

My question for this thread is: Can you see that the Bible, on one hand, speaks of God's love in conjunction with those whose sins were laid on Christ? And on the other hand, can you see that those who were hated, are those whose sins were not laid upon Christ? This is what it means to be hated. It means that you have to pay for your own sins by your own death.

[otseng]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #102]


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[2ndpillar2]

God loved the man Esau and gave him and his descendants land, same as Jacob. But centuries later they became evil. That’s when the prophet said God hated that evil people.

God did not give Essau/Edom land because he loved him, he gave him land (Mt Seir) to fulfill Scripture, as indicated in the book of Obadiah.

What scripture? Never heard of this.

The Koran does not say the Arabs originated with Ishmael and indicates that there is a 26 un delineated generation gap between Ishmael and the Arabs. Islam originated in Petra, the city of worldwide traders, and the house of Allah, the Kaaba, where all the gods of the worldwide traders were kept. Mecca was a desolate waste until around the 70th year of the supposed Muslim empire, when the Nabataeans moved out of Petra, as indicated in the later written Islamic narrative/history, which was written much later by mostly Persians in the area of Baghdad.

None of that has any bearing on the discussion.

God gave Esau land because He loved him and protected that land too.

That land will be protected until the "day of the LORD" when it is taken away and given to Israel (Obadiah 1:15-18)

That’s what I said. God loved the man Esau and gave him land and protected him. Thanks! (Are you aware that God said the same to Israel regarding keeping the land?)

Obadiah 1:1 & 15-18 For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord God concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the Lord, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.

16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lord hath spoken it.

Uh, the man Esau was long dead when this prophet lived. Long dead.

Obadiah gave prophecy for the time of the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32) when Essau/Edom, will be destroyed, and lose his property to Jacob/Israel. Obadiah is dead, but the prophecy is still in abeyance.

It is pretty obvious, but a prophet cannot be delivering a prophesy about one man when that man is already dead for centuries. If a prophet would rise up and deliver a prophesy about the destruction of Joe Kennedy, troubles that would be brought on him, we would pull him aside and tell him that Joe Kennedy is long dead and beyond any action on earth.

The prophesy was upon Edom, the offspring of Esau, who had become corrupt and evil. Insisting it is towards a man long dead does not work.

Why is it important to you that God hated the man Esau such that you dig up words that were spoken of the people who descended from him centuries later?

Essau's sin was that he sold his birthright for a bowl of soup. As for prophets, they prophecies of things to happen in future, and in this case the lands given to Essau, which was Edom, a place for jackals, will be transformed under the care of Israel.

Malachi 1:3 but Esau I have hated, and I have made his …
but Esau I have hated, and I have made his mountains a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

[Mae von H]

God loved the man Esau and gave him and his descendants land, same as Jacob. But centuries later they became evil. That’s when the prophet said God hated that evil people.

God did not give Essau/Edom land because he loved him, he gave him land (Mt Seir) to fulfill Scripture, as indicated in the book of Obadiah.

What scripture? Never heard of this.

The Koran does not say the Arabs originated with Ishmael and indicates that there is a 26 un delineated generation gap between Ishmael and the Arabs. Islam originated in Petra, the city of worldwide traders, and the house of Allah, the Kaaba, where all the gods of the worldwide traders were kept. Mecca was a desolate waste until around the 70th year of the supposed Muslim empire, when the Nabataeans moved out of Petra, as indicated in the later written Islamic narrative/history, which was written much later by mostly Persians in the area of Baghdad.

None of that has any bearing on the discussion.

God gave Esau land because He loved him and protected that land too.

That land will be protected until the "day of the LORD" when it is taken away and given to Israel (Obadiah 1:15-18)

That’s what I said. God loved the man Esau and gave him land and protected him. Thanks! (Are you aware that God said the same to Israel regarding keeping the land?)

Obadiah 1:1 & 15-18 For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord God concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the Lord, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.

16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lord hath spoken it.

Uh, the man Esau was long dead when this prophet lived. Long dead.

Obadiah gave prophecy for the time of the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32) when Essau/Edom, will be destroyed, and lose his property to Jacob/Israel. Obadiah is dead, but the prophecy is still in abeyance.

It is pretty obvious, but a prophet cannot be delivering a prophesy about one man when that man is already dead for centuries. If a prophet would rise up and deliver a prophesy about the destruction of Joe Kennedy, troubles that would be brought on him, we would pull him aside and tell him that Joe Kennedy is long dead and beyond any action on earth.

The prophesy was upon Edom, the offspring of Esau, who had become corrupt and evil. Insisting it is towards a man long dead does not work.

Why is it important to you that God hated the man Esau such that you dig up words that were spoken of the people who descended from him centuries later?

Essau's sin was that he sold his birthright for a bowl of soup. As for prophets, they prophecies of things to happen in future, and in this case the lands given to Essau, which was Edom, a place for jackals, will be transformed under the care of Israel.

Malachi 1:3 but Esau I have hated, and I have made his …
but Esau I have hated, and I have made his mountains a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Where is it written that telling your brother he can have the birthright for soup is a sin? And what exactly was the birthright Jacob bought? And why didn’t Jacob just give his hungry brother soup? Who is sinning here?

You insist the prophesy is about a man long dead in the past. I insist it’s about the future. You insist God hated the man Esau. I insist the prophesy is about his descendants.

Why is it necessary for you that God hates some people at birth?

[Mae von H]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #112]

Why is it a sin to give up your birthright (whatever that is) for soup?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #112]

Why is it a sin to give up your birthright (whatever that is) for soup?

WHAT WAS ESAU'S SIN?

Biblically a sin is thinking, feeling or doing anything out of harmony with God's standards. Esau most certainly fell short of divine standards of appreciation both for his family position and more importantly, his spiritual inheritance.

Put simply Esau's grandfather, Abraham, was given a promise from God that would be realised by his descendants. God promised Abraham's children the land of Caanan, and that one of his descendents would produce the saviour of mankind.

This promise was to pass initially from Abraham to Isaac; and from Isaac to primarily his firstborn Esau. Esau' s actions reflected his total distain for this arrangement. Some far off promise was of no immediate value to him and even his own inheritence (at his father's death) was deemed of no more importance than a literal bag of beans. It was rather like if someone offered to take your baby in exchange for a pack of cigarettes. They might, like Esau, regret it later but the fact that they let themselves make such a deal , displays something deeply troubling in their priorities.

In any case it seems God had already seen in Esau his lack of appreciation for the Abrahamic promise and transfered his attention to the more appreciative younger son, Jacob.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




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[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #112]

Why is it a sin to give up your birthright (whatever that is) for soup?

Essau's tongue was in his cheek with respect to his promise to Jacob, such as he was making a false witness, and he did not intend to let the blessing of Isaac go to Jacob and was dumbfounded when Jacob's mother tricked the bind Isaac into blessing Jacob instead of Essau.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #112]

Why is it a sin to give up your birthright (whatever that is) for soup?

Essau's tongue was in his cheek with respect to his promise to Jacob, such as he was making a false witness, and he did not intend to let the blessing of Isaac go to Jacob and was dumbfounded when Jacob's mother tricked the bind Isaac into blessing Jacob instead of Essau.

Stil was not a sin to technically give up a birthright (whatever that is) for a pot of soup. Wise? No. A sin? Not in any passage we read of.

And if we look at the lives of those two men, Esau seemed to be blessed. Jacob had a very rough life, not one to be envied if blessings, comfort and ease are of value.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #116]

The OP is a pretty interesting challenge to that theology that insists God hates babies or some adults for no reason. Since this is their firm position, there really can’t be any reasonable answer.

It is, however, a reason why some atheists think God is either not there or very cruel for hating Esau from birth. It is not the record of the Bible, not of the history of Esau or God, but when one has selected a preferred theology instead of the truth, not even the Holy Spirit can break through that shield.

The truth is God loved Esau same as every man and gave him land and offspring and protected them for a time….until they started doing grave wrong to people.

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #116]

The OP is a pretty interesting challenge to that theology that insists God hates babies or some adults for no reason. Since this is their firm position, there really can’t be any reasonable answer.

It is, however, a reason why some atheists think God is either not there or very cruel for hating Esau from birth. It is not the record of the Bible, not of the history of Esau or God, but when one has selected a preferred theology instead of the truth, not even the Holy Spirit can break through that shield.

The truth is God loved Esau same as every man and gave him land and offspring and protected them for a time….until they started doing grave wrong to people.

God does not "love everyone". He apparently hates liars, and Essau lied to Jacob when he said he would voluntarily give up his birthright to Jacob for a measly bowl of soup. Progressive Marxist love something for nothing, from someone else, and choose the immediate versus the long term, so they can appreciate Essau.

Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal faithfully are His delight.

[JehovahsWitness]

... if we look at the lives of those two men, Esau seemed to be blessed....

DID GOD BLESS ESAU ?

When the bible says God "hated" Esau it does not use the word in the sense that he detested or was repulsed by him. It simply means God loved him less than his brother. Esau was certainly not cursed, like Jacob his descendants came to be a nation. So biblically, he [Esau] was indeed blessed : with a financially successful life and a powerful legacy despite the folly of his youthful decisions.




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