Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

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Post by Jose Fly »

In another thread I expressed that I don't really understand many of the behaviors I frequently see from creationists. One of those behaviors is how they seem to not only think themselves experts in a wide variety of scientific fields, they seem to believe that their knowledge and expertise is superior to the actual professionals in those fields. Thus, we often see them attempt to debate against the work of professionals by mere assertion (IOW, "because I say so").

In that earlier thread, several folks (correctly) noted that such behavior can be explained by the Dunning-Kruger Effect. While I agree that it explains what they're doing, it still doesn't really explain why they do it or how they are seemingly oblivious to it.

The other day I came across this article....

Overconfidence and Opposition to Scientific Consensus
The recent study – Knowledge overconfidence is associated with anti-consensus views on controversial scientific issues, by Nicholas Light et al, is not surprising but is reassuringly solid in its outcome. The researchers compared peoples objective knowledge about various controversial topics (their knowledge of objective facts), with their subjective knowledge (assessment of their own knowledge) and opposition to consensus views. They found a robust effect in which opposition increased as the gap between objective and subjective knowledge increased (see graphs above the fold).

This may remind you of Dunning Kruger – the less people know the more they overestimate their knowledge (although subjective knowledge still decreases, just not as fast as objective knowledge). This is more of a super DK, those who know the least think they know the most. This has been found previously with specific topics – safety of GM food, genetic manipulation, and vaccines and autism. In addition to the super DK effect, this study shows that is correlates well with opposition to scientific consensus.

This study does not fully establish what causes such opposition, just correlates it with a dramatic lack of humility, lack of knowledge, and overestimation of one’s knowledge. There are studies and speculation trying to discern the ultimate causes of this pattern, and they are likely different for different issues. The classic explanation is the knowledge deficit model, that this pattern emerges as a result of lack of objective knowledge. But his model is mostly not true for most topics, although knowledge is still important and can even be dominant with some issues, like GM food. There is also the “cultural cognition” model, which posits that people hold beliefs in line with their culture (including political, social, and religious subcultures). This also is highly relevant for some issues more than others, like rejection of evolutionary science.

Other factors that have been implicated include cognitive style, with intuitive thinkers being more likely to fall into this opposition pattern than analytical thinkers. Intuitive thinking also correlates with another variable, conspiracy thinking, that also correlates with the rejection of consensus. Conspiracy thinking seems to occur in two flavors. There is opportunistic conspiracy thinking in which it seems to be not the driver of the false belief but a reinforcer. But there are also dedicated conspiracy theorists, who will accept any conspiracy, for which conspiracy thinking appears to be the driver.
So to put this in context of my question (why do some exhibit the D-K Effect), the research described in this article indicates that it's due to a combination of factors: lack of humility, one's cultural environment, intuitive-type thinking, conspiracy thinking

The topic for debate: Do you agree with that? Do you see this "super D-K" applying to some of the discussions/debates in this forum? Do you think there are other factors the researchers may have missed?

For me, these explanations line up quite well with the behaviors I commonly notice among creationists, most notably the lack of humility. IMO, that explains why creationists are so prone to argue via empty assertion. They think so highly of themselves, they figure "because I say so" is a valid form of argumentation and don't seem to really understand why the rest of us don't.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #61

Post by The Barbarian »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:54 pm
The Barbarian wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:46 pm The point is that Wells started with a presupposition that evolution was false. And because his religion depended on that he never could get by that presupposition.
And the point is also that evolutionists presuppose that evolution is true...and because their religion (macroevolution is a religion) depended on that, they can never get by that presupposition.

They already presupposed evolution is true, so when the found the fossilized archaeopteryx, their presupposition allowed them to conclude that this was the transitional fossil from reptile to bird...instead of simply concluding "Wow, birds of the distant past must have had teeth".
Note that creationism isn't the only weird thing he believes in. He's convinced that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.
And?
Tell me why you think Archaeopteryx is a bird. And then we'll take a look at it and see what we find. Oh, and HIV has been directly noted to produce acquired immune deficiency syndrome. It's hard to believe anyone with any understanding of virology would not see that.

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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #62

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:26 pm Irrelevant to this thread, which is about scientific consensus.
The topic of this thread was addressed.
So you actually think "I'm going to follow Reverend Sun Myung Moon's guidance and destroy Darwinism" is a scientific hypothesis? Well that certainly says a lot.
The hypothesis was "Evolution is false".

The education and the academic degrees were obtained, and the conclusion was "Based on the knowledge and experience I've gained through careful study, analysis, and experimentation, I conclude that my original sentiments were true; evolution is false...and I can care less about the scientific consensus which says otherwise."
And other people feel the same about a spherical earth. So what?
Let them do what they do.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #63

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Difflugia wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:43 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:00 pmI got $100 on Hovind.
If you're the one evaluating how good his arguments are, I have no doubt you'll win.
No confirmation bias here. If he take an L, he takes an L.
If the audience knows the subject matter, though, Hovind doesn't even need a debate opponent to lose to.
Hit him up and challenge him to a debate.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #64

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

DrNoGods wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:50 pm [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #45]
Those guys were destroyed and it was cringeworthy to watch.
Here's a description of another "debate" with Hovind from 2004 ... 14 years before the one you linked. This is from his opponent, who also used the word "destroyed" (referring to his treatment of Hovind), but pointed out two things correctly:

1) Hovind doesn't do these events to actually debate ... he's there to preach the gospel.

2) His method of supporting young earth creationism (YEC) is to bash evolution and imply by default that YEC is the only alternative.

If he actually tried to support YEC in a debate by arguing with evidence he knows he'd be completely unarmed ... and he's at least smart enough to avoid that approach.
Ok. You don't feel as if he won the debate in question. I do. You like pineapples on your pizza. I don't. I think Michael Jordan is the GOAT. You don't, you think it is Lebron James.

Who cares.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #65

Post by The Barbarian »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:33 pm The education and the academic degrees were obtained, and the conclusion was "Based on the knowledge and experience I've gained through careful study, analysis, and experimentation, I conclude that my original sentiments were true; evolution is false...and I can care less about the scientific consensus which says otherwise."


Apparently, he doesn't know what biological evolution is. It's observed constantly around us. I suspect your guy has confused evolution with an agency of evolution like natural selection, or a consequence of evolution, like common descent. What do you think it is?

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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #66

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

The Barbarian wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:51 pm Perhaps you don't know what "macroevolution" is. It's the evolution of new species. I even showed you the scientific definition from a dictionary of biology.
Funny, because evolutionists often talk about how macroevolution is a creationist term which has no place in biology. Yet, here you are giving a scientific definition from a dictionary of biology. .
SMH.

Anyways.

Macroevolution is a term coined to described evolution on a macro (large scale), such as the false notion of a reptile evolving into a bird.

Microevolution is a term coined to describe evolution on a micro (small scale), such as the true notion of a dogs evolving from wolves.

The difference between the two is simple, one is observed, and one isn't.

Plain and simple.
"Kind" is an informal term that has no meaning in taxonomy.
Tell ya what...show any child in your family who is at least 7 years old...show him/her a picture of a wolf, dog, jackal, coyote, fox, and chicken.

And ask the child to circle the one that is different than the others. I guarantee the child will the chicken, meaning that the child will understand what "kind" means...and the child didn't need an hour long lecture on biology or evolution to do so, either.

That aside, "kind" can be used interchangeably with "genus".
Nope. Read it:
Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds.
Yeah, and verse 25..

25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

And the birds were already created in verse 22, which leaves no room for this whole reptile to bird thing you guys are pushing.
Well, that's a testable belief. Tell me if Archaeopteryx is a bird or a reptile, and explain how you decided. What do you have?
Looks like like a prehistoric bird to me. And I decided by looking and birds, and determining that it looks like what I classify "birds" to look like.
Answers in Genesis says that new genera are produced by existing ones. Perhaps you need to learn more about creationism as well.
Nonsense. Answers in Genesis is merely stating what the theory of evolutionist says. Ken Ham & company does not believe in evolution.

"...evolution has never been observed despite numerous protestations to the contrary."

https://answersingenesis.org/evolution/

Perhaps you need to learn more about Ken Ham and what his ministry is and what they teach. They do not believe a reptile evolved into a bird.
Well, let's ask a YE creationist who is familiar with the evidence:

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution. (Technically, they could also be deluded or lying, but that seems rather uncharitable to say. Oops.)

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution.

YE creationist, Dr. Todd Wood The Truth About Evolution
I am at odds with any creationist/theist who believes in evolution.
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #67

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #64]
Ok. You don't feel as if he won the debate in question. I do. You like pineapples on your pizza. I don't. I think Michael Jordan is the GOAT. You don't, you think it is Lebron James.
I don't like pineapples on pizza, I do think Michael Jorgan is the GOAT, and I don't consider Lebron James even close. I did my undergraduate at UNC-Wilmington when MJ was a student at Laney High School and I worked at a pizza joint his family came to many times (when he was still Mike Jordan and nobody knew him), I did my graduate degree at UNC Chapel Hill from 1980 - 1985 when MJ came in in 1982 and hit the famous 17s shot to beat Georgetown in the NCAA finals. I followed his career with the Bulls from day one and was a big fan (he was a local boy who did very well). So you're wrong on all counts.
Who cares.
Back at ya. Creationism, and especially young earth creationism, has steadily been falling into that category for decades now as people realize it is too farfetched to take seriously in light of what science has discovered. There will always be the Hovinds and Hams of the world , and their followers, to attempt defenses of creationism, but they are fighting a battle that was lost long ago. But keep trying if it makes you happy. Who wins debates (or whatever opinions the audience leave with) is irrelevant. Science has shown young earth creationism to be wrong without any doubt, and creationism in general lacks any empirical evidence to support it (hence the Hovind approach to "debates").
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #68

Post by The Barbarian »

The Barbarian wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:51 pm Perhaps you don't know what "macroevolution" is. It's the evolution of new species. I even showed you the scientific definition from a dictionary of biology.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:46 pmFunny, because evolutionists often talk about how macroevolution is a creationist term which has no place in biology.
In the nearly 60 years I've been studying biology, it's always been a scientific term.
Yet, here you are giving a scientific definition from a dictionary of biology.
Yeah, I'm surprised that you didn't know the scientific definition.
Macroevolution is a term coined to described evolution on a macro (large scale), such as the false notion of a reptile evolving into a bird.
See above. It's not that hard to figure out. Microevolution is evolution within a species. Macroevolution is the evolution of new taxa. Speciation, in other words.


"Kind" is an informal term that has no meaning in taxonomy.
Tell ya what...show any child in your family who is at least 7 years old...show him/her a picture of a wolf, dog, jackal, coyote, fox, and chicken.
So you think a kid can tell the difference between kinds of canid and an animal of an entirely different class? Me too.
That aside, "kind" can be used interchangeably with "genus".
Foxes are a different genus from dogs. Dogs are in the genus Canis. Foxes are in the genus Vulpes.
The Bible states that the animals will bring forth after their kinds.
Nope. Read it:
Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. [/quote]
Yeah,
Nothing about animals bringing forth according to their kinds.

Well, that's a testable belief. Tell me if Archaeopteryx is a bird or a reptile, and explain how you decided. What do you have?
Looks like like a prehistoric bird to me.
Nope. It has more theropod dinosaur traits than avian ones.
And I decided by looking and birds, and determining that it looks like what I classify "birds" to look like.
And it led you astray.

Answers in Genesis says that new genera are produced by existing ones. Perhaps you need to learn more about creationism as well.
Nonsense.
Nope. For example, they suppose a "dog kind", comprising several genera. Or a "cat kind" again, several genera. You've been misled about what they say.
"...evolution has never been observed despite numerous protestations to the contrary."
https://answersingenesis.org/evolution/
Ken Ham has never figured out what biological evolution is. He thinks evolution of new species and genera isn't "real evolution." What do you think the scientific definition is?

Perhaps you need to learn more about Ken Ham and what his ministry is and what they teach. As you learned just now, they do accept the evolution of new genera. They just want to avoid calling it "evolution."


Well, let's ask a YE creationist who is familiar with the evidence:

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution. (Technically, they could also be deluded or lying, but that seems rather uncharitable to say. Oops.)

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution.


YE creationist, Dr. Todd Wood The Truth About Evolution
I am at odds with any creationist/theist who believes in evolution.
Dr. Wood does not believe in evolution. He is just honest enough to admit the fact that there is a great deal of evidence for it.

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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #69

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

DrNoGods wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:50 pm
I don't like pineapples on pizza
I agree.
, I do think Michael Jorgan is the GOAT
I agree.
, and I don't consider Lebron James even close.
See, that is where you are WRONG. LBJ is #2 behind MJ.
I did my undergraduate at UNC-Wilmington when MJ was a student at Laney High School and I worked at a pizza joint his family came to many times (when he was still Mike Jordan and nobody knew him), I did my graduate degree at UNC Chapel Hill from 1980 - 1985 when MJ came in in 1982 and hit the famous 17s shot to beat Georgetown in the NCAA finals. I followed his career with the Bulls from day one and was a big fan (he was a local boy who did very well). So you're wrong on all counts.
Good stuff. You are still taking those examples a little too far. They weren't meant to be taken literally, as I obviously wouldn't know your stance on any of those topics.

Calm down.

Gesh.
Back at ya. Creationism, and especially young earth creationism, has steadily been falling into that category for decades now as people realize it is too farfetched to take seriously in light of what science has discovered. There will always be the Hovinds and Hams of the world , and their followers, to attempt defenses of creationism, but they are fighting a battle that was lost long ago. But keep trying if it makes you happy. Who wins debates (or whatever opinions the audience leave with) is irrelevant. Science has shown young earth creationism to be wrong without any doubt, and creationism in general lacks any empirical evidence to support it (hence the Hovind approach to "debates").
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Re: Causes of Rejecting Scientific Consensus

Post #70

Post by Jose Fly »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:33 pm The hypothesis was "Evolution is false".
You're ignoring what he clearly said. He didn't start with that as a hypothesis, he started with that as a conclusion.

So again, what exactly is your point here? You're a fan of creationists. So?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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