WHAT EXISTS BEYOND THE BOUNDARY OF UNIVERSE?

[sridatta]

WHAT EXISTS BEYOND THE BOUNDARY OF UNIVERSE?

Today, the logical analysis is not only sharp but also steady due to experimental verification of every concept. The receiving nature of the people is quite stable due to the scientific analysis. People are not fast in applying the theoretical tautology to arrive at hasty conclusions.

In view of the stability of the phase of intelligence, the projection of the real unimaginable nature of God will not face the danger of non-existence. The scientist may not believe any miracle and may say that nothing is unimaginable. But the scientist must accept the unimaginable boundary of the universe.
The scientist may argue like this:- “When the universe is imaginable made of imaginable cosmic energy as the fundamental cause, how can you say that the boundary of the universe is unimaginable? Just like the ocean is water, the boundary of the ocean must be also be the same water. Hence, the boundary of the imaginable universe must be also imaginable”.

This type of argument is not acceptable if you analyze the subtle point of the boundary. When you reach the edge of the ocean and stand on it, you must find water on one side and the land, which is not water on the other side. The knowledge of both water and land is necessary to fix the boundary of the ocean. Land is not water.

If land is also water, then the boundary of the ocean is not achieved. Similarly, when you reach the boundary of the imaginable universe, you must perceive the imaginable nature of the universe on one side and the unimaginable nature on the other side. If the unimaginable nature is also imaginable, then the boundary of imaginable nature is not achieved.

When the unimaginable nature cannot be imagined by your intelligence, it means you have never reached the boundary of the imaginable universe. Unless you perceive both imaginable and unimaginable natures, the boundary of the imaginable nature is not achieved. Hence the boundary of the universe is always unimaginable from the other side. Some scientists say that the diameter of the universe is 200 billion light years.

Another scientist laughed at this by asking that if he travels all this diameter and reach the compound wall of universe, what is present beyond such compound wall? One scientist says that the universe is constantly expanding! This is again a laughable concept since it finally means that you can never achieve the boundary of the universe.

Hence, by all means the scientist has to accept the existence of the unimaginable entity, which is the other side of the boundary of the universe. It is not the boundary if the other side is not achieved. The scientist has stable and steady intelligence to realize the truth in this argument unlike a theoretical ancient tautologist. The unimaginable item, which is beyond the boundary of this imaginable universe is called as God.
When this universe is projected from God, you will touch God on reaching the edge of the universe. You can never touch God since He is unimaginable. It means that you can never reach the boundary of this universe.
Today this fundamental concept is revealed due to confidence on the stable and steady analytical faculty of real scientists. Ofcourse, foolish conservative scientists also exist even today in small number and this is inevitable at any time. Moreover, today there is lot of demand for the revelation of this basic concept in view of the violent terrorism that arose from the differences between the religions.

Even the scientific theory like constant expansion of universe tells us that the space is not inherently infinite, but, becomes relatively infinite as your mind travels through it to touch its boundary.

This means that the space is not really infinite by itself, but, relatively infinite and expands continuously before your mind reaches its boundary. The conclusion is that the boundary of the space can never be touched by your mind since the space continuously expands before your mind reaches the boundary.

The constant expansion of space indicates the main point that boundary of space, which is the unimaginable God, can never be reached by your mind (Apraapya Manasaa saha– Veda, Naantosti – Gita). This is the absolute point and the relative point is that the space is constantly expanding ahead [of] your mind. You must establish the spiritual knowledge on this basic foundation, which is that the absolute God is unimaginable. All the other concepts should be built like castles on this strong foundation.

Take the case of a stream of smoke coming from the fire. If you travel in the smoke, after some time, you can touch the fire. The stream of the smoke is finite because on reaching the boundary of the smoke, you can touch the imaginable fire.

On contrary, you cannot reach the boundary of smoke (space) if the fire (God) is unimaginable. Hence, the finite or infinity of the space depends on the imaginable or unimaginable nature of God respectively. The infinity of space is not its characteristic, but, is due to the unimaginable nature of its generator, the God.

The constant expansion of the universe also speaks the same. As you travel along the universe, it expands so that you cannot reach its boundary and touch the unimaginable God. By this, the constant expansion is again relatively justified i.e., with respect to the unimaginable God.

The constant expansion is not the absolute phenomenon of the universe, but, it is a relative phenomenon since the aim of the expansion is only to see that you should not touch the boundary of universe or God.

The space cannot exist in God since the product(space) cannot exist in its cause(God) before its generation. If the space exists in God even before its generation, it means the generation of space becomes meaningless. Anything is said to be generated, if it is absent before its generation. This means that the space and hence, the spatial dimensions do not exist in God and hence can never be imagined. The unimaginable nature is, thus, justified.

The unimaginable God proves Himself by performing unimaginable events called miracles. You cannot discard a genuine miracle as magic. Even if you discard miracles, the infinite space with unimaginable boundary stands as the solid proof for the concept of existence of unimaginable nature indicating the existence of unimaginable God.

The bending of space along the boundary of object proves that space is something (subtle energy) and not nothing. Hence, generation of space becomes a logical concept since something can be only generated and nothing cannot be generated.

[sridatta]

But, even if you try for your lifetime, you can never imagine the disappearance of vacuum.

Wait. I just imagined the disappearance of vacuum. What does that mean?

Here the word imagine means actually vaccum disappearing. If vaccumm disappears you also disappears along with that!!

But I imagined it and I'm still here.

If space disappears you also disappears along with that!! When space disappears you can see God, but when space disappears you also disappears along with that!!

Nope. Sorry. That didn't happen. You've made a mistake somewhere.

God is the generator of Space and Space is His first creation (Atmana akaashah…). God is just above the space since God is the cause and space is the first effect. Mud is the cause and pot is the effect. Unless you destroy the pot, its cause, the lump of mud cannot be visualized. Unless space is dissolved, God cannot be seen. You may try for millions of years to imagine the situation after dissolution of space. It is absolutely impossible to go beyond space. You can imagine anything with some minute spatial dimensions only, which may be very very small. Your intelligence is limited by spatial dimensions. It cannot cross the three co-ordinates, which are length, width and height called as spatial dimensions. This means, God is absolutely unimaginable to the intelligence and analysis (Yo Buddheh Paratah…).

The entire creation is within the dimensions of Space. Since God is beyond Space, it automatically means that God is beyond creation (Neti Neti…). He is not the creation. He is only the supporter of creation. Pot is not mud. Mud is the supporter of the pot. If God is creation, the purpose of creation is lost. The Veda says that God created this Universe only for entertainment (Ekaaki Naramate…). If God is the creation itself, again God becomes alone and cannot have any entertainment. For entertainment only, He wanted a second item, which must be different from Him (Sadviteeyamaichchat…). The support is quite different from the supported item. You cannot say that both are one and the same.

[DaveD49]

One suggestion: shorten and dumb it down a little lest we start imagining the unimaginable.

For the most part I agree with your statement except in your concept of God. You said

Hence, by all means the scientist has to accept the existence of the unimaginable entity, which is the other side of the boundary of the universe. It is not the boundary if the other side is not achieved. The scientist has stable and steady intelligence to realize the truth in this argument unlike a theoretical ancient tautologist. The unimaginable item, which is beyond the boundary of this imaginable universe is called as God.

Sorry, but I do not believe that God lies somewhere "beyond" our universe because He cannot exist within the space He created. Here you are treating God as a physical thing that need some "place" to exist. Think of it more like dimensions of reality. We live in our 4 dimensions and all of knowledge is built on that; it is all that we a capable of seeing. However scientists suggest that there are as many as 11 dimensions all of which are in totally invisible to us but in fact make use of our 4 dimensions and all of which could have their own life-forms. You could have a 5 dimensional being sitting next to you as you read this and have absolutely no clue that he is there. Nor could you even imagine a 5-dimesional being let alone an 11-dimensional one.

Is it possible that these beings are aware of us? I would say yes, especially if they live in all 4 of our dimensions. We could not see or interact with them, but they could perhaps see and interact with us. It is ironic that those scientists who say that what we would call "spiritual" beings do not exist, but then describe that very same thing by their theories.

[William]

One suggestion: shorten and dumb it down a little lest we start imagining the unimaginable.

For the most part I agree with your statement except in your concept of God. You said

Hence, by all means the scientist has to accept the existence of the unimaginable entity, which is the other side of the boundary of the universe. It is not the boundary if the other side is not achieved. The scientist has stable and steady intelligence to realize the truth in this argument unlike a theoretical ancient tautologist. The unimaginable item, which is beyond the boundary of this imaginable universe is called as God.

Sorry, but I do not believe that God lies somewhere "beyond" our universe because He cannot exist within the space He created. Here you are treating God as a physical thing that need some "place" to exist. Think of it more like dimensions of reality. We live in our 4 dimensions and all of knowledge is built on that; it is all that we a capable of seeing. However scientists suggest that there are as many as 11 dimensions all of which are in totally invisible to us but in fact make use of our 4 dimensions and all of which could have their own life-forms. You could have a 5 dimensional being sitting next to you as you read this and have absolutely no clue that he is there. Nor could you even imagine a 5-dimesional being let alone an 11-dimensional one.

Is it possible that these beings are aware of us? I would say yes, especially if they live in all 4 of our dimensions. We could not see or interact with them, but they could perhaps see and interact with us. It is ironic that those scientists who say that what we would call "spiritual" beings do not exist, but then describe that very same thing by their theories.

I think of it in terms of the human form as its design inhibits our ability to notice the other dimensions and thus allows us to focus mostly on our own universe.
The noticing comes about through other means...

[Diagoras]

[Replying to sridatta in post #4]

The unimaginable God is beyond the four-dimensional model of space and time.

Is he in one of those tiny dimensions, then? Maybe not the fifth, but possibly the ninth or tenth?

The theory of bending of the space around object proves that space is the most subtle energy.

Are you referring to Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity? If so, it proved that nothing can travel faster than light. Scientific proofs don’t normally make statements about how ‘subtle’ something is.

Therefore, the diameter of the Universe is infinite.

As my school physics teacher would have said, “Show your workings!”

The infinity of the Universe stands for the existence of unimaginable entity beyond the Universe existing from the boundary of Universe.

Not sure what ‘stands for’ is meant to mean in this context, but you seem to suggest an infinite universe which still has a boundary and then something ‘beyond’ it (which you imagine to be unimaginable). Would you agree that on the cosmological scale, the universe is homogeneous and isotropic, with a spatial curvature of zero? That might be a better starting point for debate in a Science forum.

Unless you accept the unimaginable region beyond the boundary of Universe, you cannot speak of the end of imaginable boundary of the Universe.

Here, we need to make a distinction between the observable universe and the physical universe. For the former, we cannot (by definition) observe anything ‘beyond’ it, and therefore cannot make any claims for any aspect of it. For the latter, its definition - ‘everything in reality’ - should clue you in to the fact that there isn’t anything else to even speculate about.

All this discussion will clearly <…>

I’d dispute the use of ‘clearly’.

[brunumb]

God is the generator of Space and Space is His first creation (Atmana akaashah…). God is just above the space since God is the cause and space is the first effect.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Start again.

[sridatta]

Sorry, but I do not believe that God lies somewhere "beyond" our universe because He cannot exist within the space He created. Here you are treating God as a physical thing that need some "place" to exist.

My point is that God is beyond space and He do not possess any spatial coordinates and hence unimaginable in His absolute state. Such God created this entire universe for His own entertainment. He comes to this world in human form like Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Shankara, Sai Baba etc to preach and uplift us known as Human incarnation of God.

God is omniscient and omni potent hence He can come in human form so that His devotees can see Him, touch Him and co-live with Him here itself in this world now.

[sridatta]

Not sure what ‘stands for’ is meant to mean in this context, but you seem to suggest an infinite universe which still has a boundary and then something ‘beyond’ it (which you imagine to be unimaginable). Would you agree that on the cosmological scale, the universe is homogeneous and isotropic, with a spatial curvature of zero? That might be a better starting point for debate in a Science forum.

God is the only reality and this entire universe is unreal with respect to Him. Reality is granted to creation by God Himself. As a result, creation, which is originally unreal, can appear to be absolutely-real to God and give Him full and real entertainment. Here, the wish of God is important. The existence (reality) of the mud, which is the cause, enters the pot, which is its effect. Hence, the pot also becomes real (existent). However, the reality of the mud does not enter the pot due to the wish of the inert mud. The mud becomes the pot due to the wish of the pot-maker, who is non-inert. So, we can say that the reality of the mud entered the pot due to the wish of the pot-maker.
With regard to the creation-pot, God is both the mud (material-cause) and the pot-maker (intellectual cause).

Hence, it is God who has given His existence (reality) to the world by His will. Since the reality of the pot is borrowed from the mud, which is its cause, that property of the reality of the pot is not permanent. It is only an associated or incidental property (taṭastha lakṣaṇam). The reality belongs to the mud forever and that reality (property) is an essential or inherent property of the mud. Thus, existence (reality) always belongs to God and is called the absolute existence or the paramārtha sattā. The reality of the pot is not inherent and is called a relative existence or the vyavahāra sattā.

Similarly, several unimaginable concepts exist in creation, as agreed even by scientists. That unimaginable nature in the deep realms of the world also comes from God. It too is given to the world by the will of God alone. For example, the boundary of the universe is unimaginable. That unimaginable boundary is due to the will of God. The purpose is that God exists surrounding this universe (Sarvamāvṛtya tiṣṭhati—Gītā). If the boundary of the universe is touched by the soul, even in its imagination, God is touched or imagined. When science says that the universe is expanding constantly, it is referring to this very concept that reaching the boundaries of space (universe) is utterly impossible.

Also, the unimaginable nature is exhibited in the miracles performed by the Incarnation of the unimaginable God. We see the miracles, but we cannot imagine their cause. We infer that the effect (miracle) seen by us occurred due to an unimaginable power. That unimaginable power is indentical with the unimaginable God. Experiencing miracles thus proves the existence of their unimaginable source, which is the unimaginable God.

The clay enters the pot by the inevitable rule of worldly logic. When a magician creates magic, the magician does not enter the expressed magic. Of course, magic is only a pre-arranged trick. The creation of this universe by God can be said to be magic without any pre-arranged trick. In worldly cause-effect relationships, the quantity of the cause (mud) must get reduced when a part of it gets converted into the effect (pot). But God continues to exist, exactly as He is in His original position, even after the universe is created. This process of creation is thus, certainly beyond worldy logic. It is an unimaginable process and God, who is its cause, is also unimaginable. Śaṅkara called this unimaginable explanation of the process of creation of this world by God as anirvacanīyatā khyāti.

[brunumb]

[Replying to sridatta in post #17]

And you know that all of this true, exactly HOW?

[Diagoras]

Similarly, several unimaginable concepts exist in creation, as agreed even by scientists. That unimaginable nature in the deep realms of the world also comes from God.

Which concepts are these? Which scientists agreed?

And what are the ‘deep realms of the world’?

Getting some details would be helpful, thank you.

[Inquirer]

God is the generator of Space and Space is His first creation (Atmana akaashah…). God is just above the space since God is the cause and space is the first effect.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Start again.

Have you ever stopped and reflected on some of the things you write? Look at your sentence:

Assumes facts not in evidence. Start again.

This typifies the fallacious and sloppy "logic" used by those who embrace scientism, it is self deluding language it even sometimes fools intelligent people who have let their guard down.

I mean are you stating that an assumption is somehow illegitimate unless there's evidence for it? If so you are quite simply wrong, any proposition justified by evidence is not an assumption, it is an inference. Assumptions do not require evidence, all we care about is that said assumption does not lead to some kind of logical contradiction or (if we're discussing science) does not lead to a prediction that differs from observation.

You cannot claim to understand science or the scientific method when you do not recognize these kind of basic errors of reasoning.

So, think about what I say and start again.