The thief on the cross misconceptions

[DJT_47]

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

[MissKate13]

Baptism was not commanded by Jesus until after He arose from the dead, therefore, Christian baptism, as we know it, did not apply to the thief.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Baptism was not commanded by Jesus until after He arose from the dead, therefore, Christian baptism, as we know it, did not apply to the thief.

The issue here is whether the commandment by Jesus of baptism; is it a requirement for salvation.

The Biblical answer is no.

We have Biblical evidence of people being saved before they were baptized, so the case should be closed.

[MissKate13]

Baptism was not commanded by Jesus until after He arose from the dead, therefore, Christian baptism, as we know it, did not apply to the thief.

The issue here is whether the commandment by Jesus of baptism; is it a requirement for salvation.

The Biblical answer is no.

We have Biblical evidence of people being saved before they were baptized, so the case should be closed.

Did Jesus, prior to His ascension, command that His disciples go into the world making disciples, baptizing and and teaching them to obey all He commanded? Yes or no?

Can you show with Scripture where Jesus rescinded His command to be baptized?

Ten days after Jesus ascended, we see Peter standing before thousands of Jews telling them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Act 2:38).

Why was the apostle Paul baptized according to Acts 22:16?

Is there a connection to baptism and the forgiveness of sins in the above passages? Yes or no?

[We_Are_VENOM]

Did Jesus, prior to His ascension, command that His disciples go into the world making disciples, baptizing and and teaching them to obey all He commanded? Yes or no?

Can you show with Scripture where Jesus rescinded His command to be baptized?

Ten days after Jesus ascended, we see Peter standing before thousands of Jews telling them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Act 2:38).

Why was the apostle Paul baptized according to Acts 22:16?

Is there a connection to baptism and the forgiveness of sins in the above passages? Yes or no?

Hmm. I already addressed these points in prior posts.

No need for me to address them again if you failed to respond to the first ones.

So my point stands...do we have Biblical evidence of people being saved before they were baptized?

Yes, we do.

That should tell us that baptism isn't a requirement for salvation.

[MissKate13]

I did not see any posts from you that addressed my questions. Would it be possible for you to copy and paste them? I ask because I am having difficulty sorting through posts. I’m new here and can’t figure out how to switch to a linear mode. Right now, everyone’s posts are layered on top of each other.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to DJT_47 in post #1]

He could have been baptized by John the Baptist at some point in his life, so this isn't even necessarily an exception to the rule.

[bob the baptist]

Baptism isca requirement of salvation set by God not by man contrary to your comment, as the scriptures clearly indicate. The precedent was established by John's baptism prior to Jesus declaration. See Luke 3:3. John's baptism was the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, exactly as was cited in Acts 2:38, which was also for the remission of sins except it was in the name of Jesus Christ. If it's not required by scripture, how do you explain the below? And Acts 2:38-47 also says not only for the remission of sins, but also to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost as well as verse 47 says the Lord adds you to his church as a result of being baptized. You are 100% wrong and inconsistent with the word of God.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 

Belief + baptism = salvation

Who does God see as a Christian?
Romans 8:9 - You (fill in your name here), however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit , if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.
The only thing you need to belong to Him is the the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The indwelling is what you seek and God who searches the hearts and minds of men allows you to abide with him through the Holy Spirit or he does not hear you/abide in you.

When did you receive the indwelling?
Ephesians 1:13 - And you (fill in your name here) also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in Him with a seal (not to be broken), the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Not when you were baptized. Why would I want to be baptized before I believe except to wash away dirt?
Then Paul asks the question of John's disciples in Acts 19:2 :
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit WHEN YOU BELIEVED?” (as Paul said they should have again in Eph 1:13) They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” Paul explains the purpose of John's baptism of repentance as not what saves them. He preaches the gospel to them, they receive his gospel, then they are baptized.
Then Paul asks the Galations:
Galatians 3:1-3 You foolish Galatians (fill in your name here, too)! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?’ Legalism and the law, or works of men are not added to belief except by foolish men such as these.

So why does Peter use the phrases similar to baptism saves? Lets look at 1 Peter and he explains why:
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison (until judgement, that his one time sacrifice was for all past sinners too, had they only believed as Noah) 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons (who did believe and obeyed), were brought safely through water.

Peter is comparing the likeness of the “new baptism” of how Christ was put to death in the flesh once, for all past/present/future sinners. Those disobedient spirits in verse 19 Jesus testified to would remain buried (covered with the water), but because Noah believed, he and his family would be saved. The WATER DID NOT SAVE THEM, THEIR BELIEF SAVED THEM so they would rise (saved by the ark), and given a new life. We now rise with Christ and have been given a new life. Jesus died for all sinners that believed.

21 (NOW, the story of Christ’s death, burial, resurrection) Baptism, which (symbolically) corresponds to this (the story of Noah and the ark ), now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as AN APPEAL TO GOD FOR A GOOD CONSCIENCE, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter is saying that the STORY of Noah symbolizes the one time death, burial, and resurrection with Christ (the gospel) and the STORY of baptism corresponds to the gospel too. Water did not save Noah or you. BELIEF IN THE STORY OF THE GOSPEL (the ceremony of baptism) saves you. Baptism now represents (NIV says symbolizes) an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. By submitting to the ceremony of baptism we are asking God for a newness of life, to be born again. Again, Peter is not saying baptism saves, he’s saying the ceremony of baptism corresponds to the story of Noah.

So why does Peter say that you must be baptized to be saved? He doesn't.
Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
But look further down in verse 41.
Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
I might see how if there was any call from Peter to create an ordered checklist how some might reason you receive Him after the checklist is completed, but in truth what is happening at Pentacost is as follows:

Acts 2:37 Now when they HEARD this (the gospel) they were cut to the heart (BELIEVED), and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” (that shows their BELIEF, right there! Those who asked that question were at that moment indwelt with the Holy Spirit and He convicts them with guilt crying out in anguish) 38 And Peter said to them (Discipling them, “now that you have HEARD AND BELIEVED, the Holy Spirit dwells within you according to Eph 1:13 so you now are children of God, a member of the church and you need to:) “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ (not John’s baptism any more, but now baptism is a “appeal to God of a clean conscience in the name of Jesus Christ because of his forgiveness) for the forgiveness of your sins (not the repentance of John) as it is not needed anymore because you are now a child of God and expected to turn from the sin Jesus died for), and (further because of your belief in the Gospel) you will receive the gift of (not the “gifts from”) the Holy Spirit. 9 For the promise (indwelling Holy Spirit) is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” (He calls the world and whoever HEARs and BELIEVEs are His elect and marked with the Holy Spirit) 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word (HEARD and BELIEVED the gospel) were (THEN) baptized (asked for forgiveness), and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Peter is reciting the prophet Joel in verses 17-28 to explain what has happened to those crazy Galileans acting as drunkards. After hearing the gospel of Jesus whom these same Jews crucified they HEARD and BELIEVED. According to Eph 1:13 that moment is when they were indwelt, no laying on of hands, no baptism as of yet. They are now Christians, brothers in Christ. Once the Holy Spirit is received and you are a Christian, from now on you are to turn and go in a different direction from all sin you encounter (repent) and you are also expected to ceremoniously “appeal to God for a good conscience (ask forgiveness)” in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (the ceremony of baptism).

So what is Peter saying in Mark 16:16 (Mark was not at the Great Commission)? Matthew was there and he says it like this:
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
Discipleship is for believers and is the responsibility of the church. You are not discipled until you are a Christian.
Jesus is telling the disciples to Go out into ALL NATIONS and make disciples. You can't be a disciple unless you are a Christian. Then he says baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
So now why did Peter hear it differently than Matthew? Who is right? Please keep reading.
The new baptism ceremony that portrays the story of the gospel is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who actually save you is what Peter and Paul speak of. Also, the passage does not specify what happens to someone who believes but is not baptized. So you have a few possible interpretations:
1. Whoever believes but is not baptized is saved.
2. Whoever believes but is not baptized will be condemned.
3. Whoever believes but is not baptized will be neither saved nor condemned.
4. Whoever believes but is not baptized will be judged by some other criteria.
Which is most consistent with the rest of scripture?
John‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John who was at the great commission (Mark was not) says nothing of John’s baptism of repentance being required for salvation. John’s baptism is NOT required for salvation, NOR is the upcoming NEW baptism. He does say that if we believe in the only Son of God we will not be condemned.
Also remember that the first manuscripts of the bible had never heard of Mark 16:9-20 and stopped at 16:8. Why? If we look at it as actually by Mark, I can see this:
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Do you know anybody like that? I can only think of Paul. Peter prophesied Saul's conversion to Paul? However, since Mark was written about 70AD everybody knew the story of Paul, so its not a prophecy as much as Peter remembering to Mark what Jesus prophesied about Saul's conversion on the the road to Damascus. In that context even, Why did only Peter hear Jesus' words? I tend to believe the earliest manuscripts were added to. I think here is where someone in the church later thought it necessary to qualify Paul's commission. Who better than Peter? But it could be said that in 70AD Mark 16:9-20 was an addendum by Mark but he did not add it straight away, that one of his scribes/students added it later. Whatever the case, I don't see Jesus commanding Mark to baptize everyone with the baptism of repentance. Its a pretty big stretch to say that its all about the requirement of baptism to be saved.

Now there is a paradox in this belief of baptism saves. Its an elephant in your front room:
Romans 8:9 clearly says you are not a Christian if you do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But some believe that the Holy Spirit is received at baptism. So, those who have the “authorization” to baptize you, also have the power to allow the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Without the seal/mark of the Holy Spirit you can not be a Christian (Romans 8:9) If you are not a Christian you can not go to Heaven and are condemned to Hell by men/elder/priest or whoever agrees or disagrees to baptize you.
God gave men (pastor/elder/priest/anyone) authorization to baptize, but he did not give men the authority over my salvation.
There is nowhere in the bible that says belief plus baptism, but there are hundreds saying belief in the gospel is WHEN you are saved. I believe Jesus says that all Christians should be baptized and Peter says you should be baptized because you are asking for forgiveness of your sins. God does not need your appeal for your salvation. He will not take back what he has given you freely (Eph 1:14). But the church brethren need to hear you and then you are added to their numbers just like Acts 2:38. You believe, the Holy Spirit indwells, you have been saved, and then you feel the need to be baptized in obedience, and take communion with your brethren in you new life.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit HIMSELF (nothing or no one else) bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. Paul says clearly, all God requires to be heirs is the Spirit indwelling and He requires belief before he becomes your intercessor to God. No ceremony.

I pray this helps you to recognize ALL of us as brethren who may or may not believe "baptism saves".

[MissKate13]

Hello Bob the Baptist,

In your opinion, does belief alone make one “alive in Christ?”

In Christ,
Kate

[bob the baptist]

Hello Bob the Baptist,

In your opinion, does belief alone make one “alive in Christ?”

In Christ,
Kate

Hello MissKate13,

I can only know how God sees us, that if we truly believe in the gospel of Christ we have been sealed/marked with the Holy Spirit. Anyone who claims the gospel as true, we should call "brother/sister". Men do not have control over my salvation. If men can hold back/allow water baptism that he says saves me, then that man believes he has complete control over my salvation. God gave no man control over my salvation. Therefore, baptism can be in obedience to his command, but it does not save.

Did the thief on the cross require the baptism of John (to show repentance), or did he require the new ceremony that asks God for a clean heart (forgiveness of sin, 1 Peter 3:21)? I can only say that the "pouring" of the Holy Spirit had not happened yet because Jesus was still on Earth. So the thief on the cross was saved by God's grace because of his belief. Just like Christians today.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit (Christians dwell within the spirit world) if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.

Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22 And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Ephesians 2 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So I believed, and received the indwelling only by God's grace because of my belief/faith, not by works, and then made "alive in Christ" to do good works. The same as the thief on the cross.

[MissKate13]

Good Morning Baptist Bob,

Thank you for your post! I appreciate the time you put into it. I am going to assume that your answer to my question “Does belief alone make one alive in Christ” is YES.. If I am wrong, please correct me.

Would you agree that baptism in the New Testament is described as a burial? Are we not buried with Christ in baptism? I refer you to the passage below.

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

I look forward to your response.

Have a blessed day!
Kate