The thief on the cross misconceptions

[DJT_47]

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

[Miles]

.... How he judges the unbaptised is up to him, but as far as it is dependent on us, all new converts should be baptised.

...doesn't Jesus judge everyone, including the baptized?

Yes.

If baptism isn't necessary then what's to be gained by it?


.

[kjw47]

Here is a fact few know about the thief and Jesus:

Truly i tell you, today you will be with me in paradise= comma error placement

Truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.= correct

Fact=Jesus was in Hades( grave) for 3 days, thus could not be in paradise that first day.

[Miles]

Here is a fact few know about the thief and Jesus:

Truly i tell you, today you will be with me in paradise= comma error placement

Truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.= correct

And everybody I listed below but you got it wrong. All 61 of them. And please note that not every Bible uses a comma, nor do they ever place their punctuation after "today."

Luke 23:43

KJ21
And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.”

ASV
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

AMP
Jesus said to him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

AMPC
And He answered him, Truly I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

BRG
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

CSB
And he said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

CEB
Jesus replied, “I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise.”

CJB
Yeshua said to him, “Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-‘Eden.”

CEV
Jesus replied, “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.”

DARBY
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

DLNT
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, you will be with Me today in paradise”.

DRA
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

ERV
Then Jesus said to him, “I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

EHV
Jesus said to him, “Amen I tell you: Today you will be with me in paradise.”

ESV
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

ESVUK
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

EXB
Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise [C heaven or the presence of God].”

GNV
Then Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

GW
Jesus said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”

GNT
Jesus said to him, “I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me.”

HCSB
And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.”

ICB
Then Jesus said to him, “Listen! What I say is true: Today you will be with me in paradise!”

ISV
Jesus told him, “I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

PHILLIPS
And Jesus answered, “I tell you truly, this day you will be with me in paradise.”

JUB
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

AKJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

LEB
And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

TLB
And Jesus replied, “Today you will be with me in Paradise. This is a solemn promise.”

MSG
He said, “Don’t worry, I will. Today you will join me in paradise.”

MEV
Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

MOUNCE
And Jesus said to him, “In solemn truth I tell you: today you will be with me in · paradise.”

NOG
Yeshua said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”

NABRE
He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

NASB
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NASB1995
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

NCB
Jesus said to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

NCV
Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NET
And Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NIRV
Jesus answered him, “What I’m about to tell you is true. Today you will be with me in paradise.”

NIV
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NIVUK
Jesus answered him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.’

NKJV
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NLV
Jesus said to him, “For sure, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NLT
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NMB
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise.

NRSVA
He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’

NRSVACE
He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’

NRSVCE
He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

NRSVUE
He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NTE
‘I’m telling you the truth,’ replied Jesus, ‘you’ll be with me in paradise, this very day.’

OJB
And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said to him, Omein, I say to you, hayom (today) with me you will be in Gan Eden.

RGT
Then Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

RSV
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

RSVCE
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

TLV
Yeshua said to him, “Amen, I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

VOICE
Jesus: I promise you that this very day you will be with Me in paradise.

WEB
Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

WE
And Jesus said to him, `I tell you the truth. Today you will be with me in God's garden of paradise.'

WYC
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

YLT
and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

.

[kjw47]

Here is a fact few know about the thief and Jesus:

Truly i tell you, today you will be with me in paradise= comma error placement

Truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.= correct

And everybody I listed below but you got it wrong. All 61 of them. And please note that not every Bible uses a comma, nor do they ever place their punctuation after "today."

Luke 23:43

KJ21
And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.”

ASV
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

AMP
Jesus said to him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

AMPC
And He answered him, Truly I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

BRG
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

CSB
And he said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

CEB
Jesus replied, “I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise.”

CJB
Yeshua said to him, “Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-‘Eden.”

CEV
Jesus replied, “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.”

DARBY
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

DLNT
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, you will be with Me today in paradise”.

DRA
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

ERV
Then Jesus said to him, “I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

EHV
Jesus said to him, “Amen I tell you: Today you will be with me in paradise.”

ESV
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

ESVUK
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

EXB
Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise [C heaven or the presence of God].”

GNV
Then Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

GW
Jesus said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”

GNT
Jesus said to him, “I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me.”

HCSB
And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.”

ICB
Then Jesus said to him, “Listen! What I say is true: Today you will be with me in paradise!”

ISV
Jesus told him, “I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

PHILLIPS
And Jesus answered, “I tell you truly, this day you will be with me in paradise.”

JUB
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

AKJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

LEB
And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

TLB
And Jesus replied, “Today you will be with me in Paradise. This is a solemn promise.”

MSG
He said, “Don’t worry, I will. Today you will join me in paradise.”

MEV
Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

MOUNCE
And Jesus said to him, “In solemn truth I tell you: today you will be with me in · paradise.”

NOG
Yeshua said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”

NABRE
He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

NASB
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NASB1995
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

NCB
Jesus said to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

NCV
Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NET
And Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NIRV
Jesus answered him, “What I’m about to tell you is true. Today you will be with me in paradise.”

NIV
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NIVUK
Jesus answered him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.’

NKJV
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NLV
Jesus said to him, “For sure, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NLT
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NMB
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise.

NRSVA
He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’

NRSVACE
He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’

NRSVCE
He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

NRSVUE
He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NTE
‘I’m telling you the truth,’ replied Jesus, ‘you’ll be with me in paradise, this very day.’

OJB
And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said to him, Omein, I say to you, hayom (today) with me you will be in Gan Eden.

RGT
Then Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

RSV
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

RSVCE
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

TLV
Yeshua said to him, “Amen, I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

VOICE
Jesus: I promise you that this very day you will be with Me in paradise.

WEB
Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

WE
And Jesus said to him, `I tell you the truth. Today you will be with me in God's garden of paradise.'

WYC
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

YLT
and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

.

They do have it wrong--The bible is clear, Jesus was in the grave for 3 days. The Hebrew word Sheol= The Greek word Hades, both translate the grave. Ecclesiastes 9:10-- All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to where you are going)= the dead. Blind guides teach there is life in death, but the bible is clear, there is no life in death. Revelation clearly shows the resurrection occurs after Armageddon, which has not occurred yet.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to DJT_47 in post #1

Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died.

If this is the case, how could Jesus have been a sacrifice for sin?

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/vi ... sover-lamb

(emphasis on 0:01-3:55)

[We_Are_VENOM]

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

A couple things to point out here...

1. At no point in scripture is it stated that baptism is a requirement for salvation. The thief on the cross; the point is, not only was he not baptized and yet still saved...but there was no long, drawn out Bible study for him to undergo for him to be saved. There was no baptism for him to be saved. There was no period of time where he was to attend church for him to be saved. He did not have to belong to any man-made religion or follow any particular group of people. All that was required of him, was for him to express faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that requirement was apparently met.

2. You mention baptism and how baptism for salvation wasn't a prerequisite until after Jesus death. Well, I mean, the scriptures had Jesus, John the Baptize, and their disciples baptizing people, long before Jesus' death.

So, what would have been the purpose of those baptisms if, according what you are insinuating, baptism regeneration wasn't established until after Jesus' death?

[DJT_47]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #16]

You are way off in your understanding of these things.

Baptism is 100% required as confirmed by many scriptures, i.e.; Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3,:21, Acts 22:16 to name a few. If you're in sin you're not saved. The thief was forgiven while Jesus was yet alive, no different than Jesus forgave others during his ministry on earth such as the adulterous woman. Baptism has nothing whatsoever to fi with the forgiveness of the thief and shouldn't even be a topic of discussion when considering the thief's forgiveness by Jesus.

And you are not understanding the baptism of John correctly. It was the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins as stated in Luke 3:3. It was identical to the baptism noted in Acts 2:38 EXCEPT the baptism in Acts 2:38 was in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Being baptized into Christ means you're baptized into the body of Christ which is his church. Read Acts 2:38-47. Not so with John's baptism even though it was a baptism in water for the remission of sins, but not in the name of Jesus Christ. Read the account of the Ephesians in Acts 19 who were baptized unto John's baptism, but were re-baptized in the name of Jesus Christ once they were corrected by Paul.

[We_Are_VENOM]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #16]

You are way off in your understanding of these things.

Am I? Lets see whatcha got..

Baptism is 100% required as confirmed by many scriptures, i.e.; Mark 16:15-16

Now, you know full well that we can't necessarily rely on anything in Mark 16 beyond verse 9.

, Acts 2:38

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the [k]remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Hmm. Interesting. Very interesting indeed.

Ahh, I got one for you..very next chapter..

Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord".


Where is baptism in there? I don't see it. In fact, it isn't mentioned in the entire context of what Peter was saying (from verse 17-26).

Or what about..

Acts 10:43..

43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Do you see anything about baptism required for forgiveness of sins? No, you don't.

Or what about...

Acts 13:39

39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

Do you see anything about baptism required for forgiveness of sins? No, you don't.

Or what about..

Acts 16:31

31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Do you see anything about baptism required for forgiveness of sins? No, you don't.

And that is just the book of Acts, I have more. Trust me, I do.

But what about the scripture you mentioned, again...

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the [k]remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."


Question. If I tell you to "Put on your cap and gown, so that you can walk across the stage during your graduation and receive your diploma".

The question is, even if you did not walk across the stage or even receive your diploma...does this mean that you did not graduate? No, you've already met the requirements for graduation, the walking across the stage and diploma is just the ceremony.

The final nail in the coffin of your argument...is look at the verse...look at the order...

1. Repent

2. Baptism

3. Sins are forgiven

4. Receive the Holy Spirit

Yet, in Acts 10:44-48...

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And [o]those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Notice the order..

1. Forgiveness of sins and thus saved (once they heard the word and accepted it).

2. Holy Spirit received.

3. Baptized.

Only those that are saved receive the Holy Spirit, and those mentioned in context (44) were saved BEFORE they were baptized, thus further proof that baptism isn't required for salvation.

So Acts 2:38 cannot mean what you think it means.

, 1 Peter 3,:21

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Again, this cannot mean what you think it means, otherwise it will contradict scriptures which states the contrary.

There is scriptural of evidence of people believing and receiving the Holy Spirit before they were baptized, so if they were saved before they were baptized, then your exegesis of 1 Peter 3:21 is incorrect.

When you accept Christ, you have a "spiritual" washing away of your sins, that is why it states "but the answer of a good conscience toward God". Your consciousness (mind) is your spirit...that is why the author of 1 Peter is making a distinction between physical water (which removes the filth from flesh), and the spiritual cleansing of the mind.

, Acts 22:16 to name a few.

Acts 22:16

16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

The key to understanding this verse as it pertains to this subject matter...the question is ultimately whether or not Paul was saved before he was baptized by Ananias...and once you read Acts 9, it seems clear that he was.

Paul accepted Christ once he said "What shall I do, Lord?(v.6)

He was just on his way to persecute the followers of Jesus (and Christ himself), and now he is calling Jesus "Lord". He accepted Christ and the mission that Christ was about to set him upon...Paul changed his whole tune and route. He was chosen by Christ, heard the message of Christ, and accepted the message of Christ....and was thus saved by Christ....and this was all BEFORE he was baptized.

That, followed by the fact that in the same context (Acts 9:17), has Paul receiving the Holy Spirit before he was baptized as well.

Sure, Paul was baptized shortly thereafter, but he was already under Christ's grace and mercy before his body touched the water.

If you're in sin you're not saved. The thief was forgiven while Jesus was yet alive, no different than Jesus forgave others during his ministry on earth such as the adulterous woman. Baptism has nothing whatsoever to fi with the forgiveness of the thief and shouldn't even be a topic of discussion when considering the thief's forgiveness by Jesus. And you are not understanding the baptism of John correctly. It was the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins as stated in Luke 3:3. It was identical to the baptism noted in Acts 2:38 EXCEPT the baptism in Acts 2:38 was in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Being baptized into Christ means you're baptized into the body of Christ which is his church. Read Acts 2:38-47. Not so with John's baptism even though it was a baptism in water for the remission of sins, but not in the name of Jesus Christ. Read the account of the Ephesians in Acts 19 who were baptized unto John's baptism, but were re-baptized in the name of Jesus Christ once they were corrected by Paul.

That is cute, but the question is whether or not one can be saved without being baptized. I provided scriptural evidence of people being saved before they were baptized, Paul included.

And as long as there is at least one exception to your unbiblical rule, then this exception is enough to conclude that baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

Baptism is something you do ONCE you are saved, but it is not something you must do to BECOME saved.

[DJT_47]

[Replying to 1213 in post #3]

It's simple. Salvation is being saved. From what? The past sins you've committed! If you're in sin you're not saved, and lost. If baptism is fir the remission of sins then there's your answer. When sins are remitted or forgiven, you've been saved. It's obvious what was meant.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #3]

It's simple. Salvation is being saved. From what? The past sins you've committed! If you're in sin you're not saved, and lost. If baptism is fir the remission of sins then there's your answer. When sins are remitted or forgiven, you've been saved. It's obvious what was meant.

I agree, when sins are forgiven, person is saved from the judgment that would come because of sin. But sins can be forgiven without baptism also and it is not the baptism that brings the forgiveness. Forgiveness comes from the words of the person who says sins are forgiven.