Atheist can never disprove the existence of God

[sridatta]

The atheists can never disprove the existence of unimaginable God due to several unimaginable events (miracles) exhibited by several Godly people and due to several practical experiences of the existence of unimaginable power of God during the lives of several people in this world. The miracles are exhibited not only by Godly people and human incarnations but also by evil people having very bad character and conduct, cheating the public in many ways. The development of atheism is mainly due to the existence of such evil people only. But, the atheists are also not analyzing the miracle performed by an evil person.

The concept of the miracle is completely different and has nothing to do with the character of the person performing that miracle. A petty fellow, who has worst character due to bad habits like drinking etc., is announcing a rule of Municipality in a town to the public. The message of the announcement has nothing to do with the character of the announcer. Since, the announcer is a bad fellow, you cannot ignore the message of the Municipality and behave as you like. The announcer will be separately punished for his bad character. You will be also punished if you ignore his announcement based on the point that the announcer is not a good fellow.

Similarly, you have to take the point conveyed by the miracle and ignore the character of the evil person performing that miracle. God will punish him separately for his evil nature. From the unimaginable event (miracle), you should conclude the existence of unimaginable God. This is the message of any miracle to create the fundamental belief in God. Some people having jealousy on great devotees of God or the human incarnation of God, reject the greatness of devotees or incarnation based on miracles by saying “even dirty people perform these miracles. What is the greatness by such miracles?”.

They pass such comments due to two reasons:

1) they are jealous of the greatness of devotees or incarnation and

2) they have not understood the message conveyed by a miracle.

If a good fellow is announcing a message and if you say that the same message was also announced by a bad fellow previously and hence the message should be neglected, is it correct? A miracle is necessary for majority of human beings to have real belief in the existence of God. Several people are standing on the ground and require this to climb the first step. After having the full belief in the existence of God, miracles are not necessary because the second step is to attain the grace of God through practical sacrifice. But, several theists also need the observation of miracles, because their belief is not perfect and hence to strengthen their belief, miracles are necessary. Even a person having full faith in the existence of God should not criticize the miracles, because you cannot ignore the first step after climbing the second step.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to sridatta in post #1]

Just so we are clear, what unimaginable events (miracles) are you referring to here? Can you give an example?

[Difflugia]

Just so we are clear, what unimaginable events (miracles) are you referring to here? Can you give an example?

[sridatta]

[Replying to sridatta in post #1]

Just so we are clear, what unimaginable events (miracles) are you referring to here? Can you give an example?

Few example are given below"

1) Giving Vision as Lord Dattatreya:

a) Swami visited the house of a devotee called as Seetamma, who is the neighbor of Shri C.B.K. Murthy. The devotee Seetamma was shocked to see Swami as Lord Dattatreya with three faces and six hands having dazzling golden color as stated by the devotee afterwards. The devotee became unconscious for three days. The interpretation of Swami for the golden color is given like this: “Gold indicates Goddess Lakshmi, who is said to have golden color (Hiranyavarnaam…). Goddess Lakshmi is said to be the divine nature that acts as the medium of God. Gold is said to be the most precious metal indicating the most precious unimaginable God. If you mean gold as unimaginable God, the incarnation becomes Hiranyagarbhaa, which means that gold or unimaginable God is hidden in the medium. If you take gold as the external medium of the unimaginable God, the absolute truth, such concept is also referred in the Veda (Hiranmayena patrena). This devotee is having serious financial problems and the golden color indicates the grace of God to remove her economic difficulties so that she can concentrate more and more on God.”

b) Swami visited the house of Shri G. Shivarama Murthy, Retd. Secretary of Khadi Board in Tirupati for three days and conducted spiritual debates. On the third day, there was a large gathering of devotees. Swami asked the first daughter-in-law (Smt. Valli) of Shri G. Shivarama Murthy, “Look at Me and announce in what form I am appearing to you?” She told that she is viewing Lord Dattatreya with three faces and six hands. Swami told again, “Look at Me more carefully. Wash your face and eyes thoroughly. Then see Me and tell all this gathering in what way I am looking.” She washed her face and rubbed her eyes again and again and finally saw at Swami declaring the same vision of Lord Dattatreya by looking Swami any number of times. The interpretation of Swami on this miracle was like this: “She alone deserves the divine vision in that gathering and she was made to become the witness of the divine vision as said by Jesus (give witness of My miracle). The Veda also says that you should give witness for the divine miracle (Etaavaanasya mahimaa). Such witness brings devotion even in the hearts of the other undeserving devotees of such divine visions and gradually make them deserving.”

c) Shri Subrahmanyam is a strong devotee of Shri Ganapathy Sachchidananda Swamiji, a human incarnation of Lord Dattatreya. He was such ardent devotee of Swamiji that his last rituals were got conducted by Swamiji Himself. Shri Subrahmanyam came to Swami in Vijayawada and expressed his desire to go to Gangapur and stay there for the rest of his life. Swami told him, “Postpone your journey to Gangapur for a few days to have another journey decided by Lord Datta.” Shri Subrahmanyam thought that he has to visit some other pious place and postponed his journey. Within few days, he became seriously ill and died in the hospital at Mysore. He got the divine vision of Lord Dattatreya in the last hour, which was described by him to his wife as his last words, which were “I am seeing Lord Dattatreya standing before me with brilliant radiation. Each of His three faces is only the face of Shri Datta Swami present in Vijayawada. One sage is sitting at His feet throwing flowers on Him. You please go to Vijayawada and worship Him by which you will certainly get the salvation.” His wife came to Vijayawada and explained this vision and worshiped Swami.

d) Smt. Lavanya is an ardent devotee of Swami. She invited Swami for meals to her house in Vijayawada. Her mother-in-law was a great devotee of Shri Paramaachaarya of Kanchi Peetham. She was having a strict discipline that she will not bow to any human being except Paramaachaarya! She clearly told all the people in the house that she will give food to Swami but not bow to Him. Swami went to her house and sat on a chair. Her mother-in-law was also sitting on a chair without even standing on the arrival of Swami. All people in the house bowed to Swami by touching His holy feet. She looked at Swami in casual way when all the people finished their salutations to Swami. Swami appeared as Lord Dattatreya with three faces radiating. She stood and ran fast and fell on the feet of Swami. People couldn’t digest this unexpected turn. She was not speaking to anybody for four days and was maintaining perfect silence. All the people asked her about her silence due to shock. She revealed the reason telling “when I looked the face of Swami, three divine faces of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva appeared radiating bright light and I was shocked!”

Swami explained: “Her devotion to Paramaachaarya is good since He is praised as God walking in human form. Devotion to one form is not wrong. But, disrespecting other forms of God is not correct. This is the basis for the split of religions and quarrels in this world. If you are travelling in the path from your house to the centre, there is nothing wrong. But if you say that you will not respect the paths starting from others’ houses since they will not lead to the same centre that becomes wrong. Respect to your path is appreciated, but disrespect to other paths is to be condemned and hence the above vision was given to her. There is nothing wrong if she says that she will bow to Paramaachaaryaa only. This is a conservative thought following one path with full rigidity. But, when she said that she will not bow anybody else that becomes wrong since it is negation of other similar divine personalities.”

e) Once Swami was taken by devotees to a great saint called Vishvamji in Guntur, who was considered to be the incarnation of Lord Datta. Swami asked the devotees to go back. Vishvamji honoured Swami by covering Him with very precious Kashmir shawl. After that, Vishvamji told His disciple to take Swami to the house of His brother called Vishwanatha Sharmaji saying that Swami should be given Bhiksha, which means food to be given with worship to a saint. Somehow, there was communication gap and Sharmaji misunderstood the word Bhiksha as food to be given to a poor beggar since this word can mean in both ways. Sharmaji asked Swami to sit on a stone near his compound wall, misunderstanding Swami as a real beggar by seeing the torn and dirty dress of Swami. Sharmaji was also an ardent devotee of Lord Datta, who wrote several books on God Datta. Swami sat on the stone like beggar. Sharmaji took bath in the house and came to the side of the house having several flowering plants to pluck the flowers for his daily worship. Sharmaji collected all types of flowers in big basket and was approaching to the side of Swami to take a turn towards his house. Sharmaji looked at Swami in casual way. Swami appeared as Lord Dattatreya shining. Sharmaji ran to Swami, poured all the flowers on head of Swami and fell on His feet. Swami was taken in to house with full honour from all the family members and was worshipped by offering meals.

Swami explained: “Sharmaji was great devotee of God Datta. But, Sharmaji misunderstood Swami as a beggar due to external dress. The internal core is always important like a golden chain of pearls lying on the ground covered with dust. Lord Dattatreya is never recognized due to external covering illusion since He appears as a drunkard, mad and surrounded by prostitutes! A scholar like Sharmaji, who wrote several books on God Datta, was also misled like this in the context of practical test. Knowledge becomes useful only when it is implemented in practical situation.

f) Swami Shivaananda Maharaj ji came to Vijayawada, who was considered to be the direct disciple of Narasimha Saraswati He was doing several miracles and huge crowds of devotees were visiting Him. The devotees of Swami were not having full faith in Swami, who were wavering with doubt whether Swami is really the human incarnation of God Datta. The devotees planned to take Swami to Maharaj ji so that the truth will come out and requested Swami that all the devotees along with Swami shall visit Maharaj ji. Swami refused to face Maharaj ji and the doubt of devotees became more and more strong! Somehow, all forced Swami by repeated requests and visited Maharaj ji along with Swami. Swami was expressing fear on the way to see such divine personality and this made the devotees to arrive to the conclusion that Swami is fearing since His truth will come out! Datta is entertained by enjoying in His play in that way!

As soon as Swami was seen, Maharaj ji stood and garlanded Swami with a big flower garland crying loudly ‘Jaya Jaya Datta’ (Victory to Datta) and fell on the feet of Swami. All were shocked by this incident and Maharaj ji asked his disciples to bow to the pious feet of God Datta. All including the spectators followed the instruction. Maharaj ji told our devotees that Swami is the human form of Lord Datta. My mother invited Maharaj ji to her house for worship. Maharaj ji told her “You have Lord Datta in human form directly in your house and what is the fun of inviting me?” (Swami was staying in my house during those days). Maharaj ji told Ajay “If you think that Datta enters Swami now and then only, you are slipping totally. Datta always stays in this Swami. (Ajay was thinking that when Swami gives spiritual knowledge, Datta enters Swami and leaves after the speech is over. Actually, this was an illusion created by Swami Himself, who stated to all devotees that Datta enters Him only in the time of speech.)

Next day, Swami was hiding Himself in the back side of the statue of Sai Baba in a nearby temple along with me and Ajay since the whole area was filled with lot of crowds visiting Maharaj ji. Maharaj ji is totally unaware of the visit of Swami. Maharaj ji immediately visited this temple of Sai Baba, went to the back side of statue where Swami was hiding Himself and touched the feet of Swami! All this made the devotees of Vijayawada to confirm their faith in Swami.

Swami explained: “I gave the vision of Shri Narasimha Saraswati to Maharaj ji for whose vision He was very much anxious. At the same time, the faith of our devotees is totally confirmed by this vision. This served both the purposes. Removal of doubt of a devotee is essential especially when the doubt is created by Me only! Datta makes the devotees to swing between faith and doubt, who are lulled like small babies in the cradle!”

2) Giving Vision as God Brahma:

On the 3rd floor of the house of Shri C B K Murthy, a room was specifically allotted for the shrine of Lord Dattatreya. Just before the shrine a big precious bed was arranged on which Shri Swami used to sleep whenever He stays in their house. One day, in night Shri C B K Murthy tried to look in to the room through the window while Swami was sleeping on the bed. Shri Swami awoke and warned him not to see like that. Shri Swami told “even if I do not sleep on this bed with this human body, I sleep on this bed with My energetic body. Hence, do not look through window and let the windows be also bolted tight like the doors”. From that day onwards, whatever told by Swami was followed strictly. But, the first daughter-in-law of Shri C B K Murthy (Smt. Sri Lakshmi) did not believe these words of Swami. She was also feeling embarrassed while Swami was lying on the bed putting His feet on the bed arranged for the Lord. The month of Kartika came and in one night, she went to the 3rd floor and lit a light outside the shrine as per the usual custom of ritual in that month. Then, she thought to look in to the room through loose gaps of the doors of window. That night, Swami was not sleeping in that room and as per the words of Swami, Swami should sleep in that room with His energetic body. Thinking that all this is gossip of Swami, she went near the window and looked in to the room through gaps. She was shocked and dumb stuck! Lord Datta with three heads and six hands was lying on the bed with closed eyes emitting an ocean of dazzling white light of colour of camphor. She was shocked and ran down. She could not speak any word to anybody in that night and spent sleepless night with tension and anxiety. Next day, she was in normal condition and told everything in the house. Swami came that day and told that she looked the radiation of Brahma (Brahma Tejas) as a result of her penance for past several births.

Swami explained this vision: “Rajas is inert energy of Brahma. Sattvam is awareness of Vishnu, Tamas is solidified energy called matter of Shiva. All these three are the instruments and materials for creation. Awareness is used in planning. Inert energy and inert matter are used as the building materials. Inert energy is the primary cause and hence Brahma is said to be the creator. The specific work form of inert energy is awareness. Inert matter is another form of inert energy only. Inert energy was the first creation as per the Veda ‘Tattejosrujata’. Such primordial energy is called as the radiation of God Brahma or Brahma Tejas. By the grace of God Datta, she was not harmed by the intensive vision. Anyone of these three qualities is always associated with the other two qualities. Hence, Brahma or Vishnu or Shiva can be linked to anyone of these three qualities as per the context. In the above vision, the energetic medium alone is expressed. The energetic form is also superimposed on this human body and in such case I will appear as the energetic form of Lord Dattatreya or any other form of God. Due to intensive radiation of energetic form, My human body gets masked and becomes invisible. For example, when the light is glowing intensively, the glass bulb gets masked by the intensive radiation and becomes invisible. It will just look like a block of light energy only. This is the scientific mechanism of the visions. Of course, the total concept can’t be explained by science because the appearance of energetic form itself is beyond science. When the energetic form disappears, I become visible as usual.”

3) Giving vision of God Vishnu: Smt. Padmaram is a very sincere devotee of Swami, who sung all the devotional songs composed by Swami. She stays in a city (Ramachandrapuram) far from Vijayawada. One day she phoned to Swami, who was staying in my house. Her phone talk was “All the devotees in Vijayawada are very lucky to see Your miracles there. I am unlucky staying far. I pray You to show some miracle to the devotees surrounding You in this very moment and let those devotees phone me about Your miracle so that I will be very much satisfied and get pleased.” In that time, Swami was surrounded by several devotees and a new devotee called Ramaa from Singapore came suddenly to Swami’s place. She was totally unaware of Swami and visited my house being my family friend. She suddenly saw a rotating wheel of very bright radiation behind the head of Swami with five colours and was so much shocked so that she started shivering and weeping with lot of fear! She was consoled and was brought to the normal mode after some time by the devotees. Swami asked her to phone to Padmaram and tell about her vision in detail. She told the same and Padmaram was very much overwhelmed with lot of excitement. At the same time of vision, Bhargavi, nephew of Swami along with family members of Swami, at the native place of Swami, was near a lady devotee possessed by Goddess Mahalakshmi, who was foretelling to the crowd of her devotees. She told Bhargavi suddenly “your uncle is God Vishnu and just now He is giving the vision of His radiant wheel with five colours to a devotee in Vijayawada!” She phoned to the devotees of Vijayawada for confirmation and she was confirmed of this miracle after some time!

Swami explained: “Padmaram is My great devotee. No doubt in this. But, doubt drowns every devotee one day or other! She was cleared! Same time, My family members were also given the opportunity to know about Me. Since Ramaa was quite new without any information about Me, My devotees here can also be confirmed that the vision given by Me is not a created story of My close devotee with whom I might have made some secret deal! The five colours of wheel represent the five elements and the wheel is made of cosmic energy, the basic material of creation. Rotation of the wheel indicates the dynamic nature of time.”

Swami joked with Bhargavi on phone, who was asking about the meaning of the wheel, by saying “How can I see the wheel, which is behind My head and how can I explain it without seeing it? As I turned back My head to see it, the wheel was coming always behind My head!”

4) Giving vision of God Shiva: In the night of one Shivaraatri festival, Swami was singing several devotional songs on God Shiva composed by Him spontaneously. I was sitting near the feet of Swami and in any night I do not sleep unless Swami sleeps. In the midnight a wave of very bright radiation in the form of Shiva lingam appeared on the chest of Swami for 15 minutes. The light energy emitted by that was so much that the walls of the room were also invisible in the light. Constantly, the sound of AUM was coming out from that wave. I touched it and became almost unconscious for several days.

Swami explained: “Shiva Lingam, called as Atma Lingam, is in the form of a wave representing cosmic energy. Wave is the characteristic of energy. Cosmic energy is the fundamental material with which all this world is designed. From cosmic energy only, awareness and matter resulted as said in the Veda ‘Annat Purushah’. Cosmic energy with high frequency in very subtle form is space (Aakaasha) and with low frequency in visible region is light energy or Tejas or Agni. This is the inner meaning of Shiva Lingam, which should be known on this holy day of Maha Shivaraatri”.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to sridatta in post #4]

Okay, so the examples given here all take the form of "appearing as a deity subjectively to individuals." You suggested two reasons why I would reject them:

1) I am jealous of the greatness of devotees or incarnation and
2) I have not understood the message conveyed by a miracle.

I suggest a third reason:

3) they are not miracle at all, there must be a natural explanation to them since dirty people has performed the same.

How would you rule mine out?

[sridatta]

[Replying to sridatta in post #4]

Okay, so the examples given here all take the form of "appearing as a deity subjectively to individuals." You suggested two reasons why I would reject them:

1) I am jealous of the greatness of devotees or incarnation and
2) I have not understood the message conveyed by a miracle.

I suggest a third reason:

3) they are not miracle at all, there must be a natural explanation to them since dirty people has performed the same.

How would you rule mine out?

The main reason for reject God when He comes here in human form is the ego and jealosy of human beings to other human beings. The message conveyed by a miracle is explained in the above description of the original post against each miracles. Devotees experienced that miracle and several devotees confirmed it. It cannot be magic.

[Bust Nak]

The main reason for reject God when He comes here in human form is the ego and jealosy of human beings to other human beings. The message conveyed by a miracle is explained in the above description of the original post against each miracles.

You are just repeating your two reasons re: ego and message. I asked you how you can rule out mine.

Devotees experienced that miracle and several devotees confirmed it. It cannot be magic.

Why not?

[sridatta]

You are just repeating your two reasons re: ego and message. I asked you how you can rule out mine.

If you are jealous then i will not be able to identify God in human form and it is your loss.

[sridatta]

Why not?

How can curing diseases etc is a magic? The devotee himself experienced and testify it.

[Bust Nak]

If you are jealous then i will not be able to identify God in human form and it is your loss.

Alternatively, jealousy has nothing to do with it, and you are unable to identify God in human form because gods don't actually exist. How can you rule this alternative out?

How can curing diseases etc is a magic?

Maybe there was no disease in the first place, maybe the disease was not cured by the Swami but by something else.

The devotee himself experienced and testify it.

That doesn't mean much in light of the alternatives I suggested above, as sincere beliefs are very different things from true beliefs. Maybe it's not even sincere, maybe it's a scam. It's not hard for me to come up with alternatives. How can you rule such alternatives out?