Why Scientists need to accept the Eastern perspective

[Swami]

It is one thing for scientists to acknowledge that we don't experience reality as it is. It's another thing for them to deny help from those who can and have experienced fundamental reality. Scientists that decline the help and insight from others are choosing to remain in ignorance. Should not scientists first learn how to experience what Kant calls the 'noumenal world' before putting any confidence in their theories?

Yoga Vasistha,Book I, ch. 3

2 Valmiki replied:— Know, holy saint, that the things seen in this world are deceiving, even as the blueness of the sky is an optical illusion. Therefore it is better to efface them in oblivion rather than to keep their memory. 3 All visible objects have no actual existence. We have no idea of them except through sensation. Inquire into these apprehensions and you will never find them as real.

Scientists confirm this insight.

[sridatta]

Book I, ch. 3

2 Valmiki replied:— Know, holy saint, that the things seen in this world are deceiving, even as the blueness of the sky is an optical illusion. Therefore it is better to efface them in oblivion rather than to keep their memory. 3 All visible objects have no actual existence. We have no idea of them except through sensation. Inquire into these apprehensions and you will never find them as real.

The divine knowledge will make you realize that though this world is real for the soul, the bonds between souls are unreal and dramatic. The sage Astavakra preaches the King Janaka through “Astavakra Samhita”, in which, the sage says that the mother and son in this life are becoming husband and wife in the next life! It is a hero and heroine acting two different roles in different pictures. We have two pictures running side by side in two theatres in which the same couple of actors acting as husband and wife in one picture and acting as mother and son in another picture! This bond did not exist in the past birth and will not exist in the future birth. That which was unreal in the past and will be unreal in the future is also unreal in the present according to Shankara. It is just a dramatic bond. Realize the main aim of human life and concentrate on that.

You are unnecessarily worried in the side activity, which is just a change for recreation. Let her or him go to hell. Do not bother about it. There should be no tension in a game for a student. Game is just a recreation arranged for change. Do not be jealous on a classmate in a game. Be jealous in studies on the same classmate, because study is the main aim of your college life. Attractions are spontaneous, which can neither be created nor suppressed by force. A forced attraction by fear is not real and what is the use of such faith and love? In spiritual path also, the attraction to God should be spontaneous and natural without fear or force. Fulfilling the desires is the force.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Swami in post #1]

Yes, my brain exists. Thank you for asking me. Now go text on your phone and use your computer that was discovered and developed by real brains making real observations.

[sridatta]

[Replying to Swami in post #1]

Yes, my brain exists. Thank you for asking me. Now go text on your phone and use your computer that was discovered and developed by real brains making real observations.

If you take brain as the main focus, let it be so in which the main focus is on matter. If you take the technique of the brain as the main focus, the technology involving both materialised brain and the energetic transformations, let it be so. In any case, only matter and energy are involved.

Even if you take awareness as a special entity other than matter and energy, we say that such special entity is created by God. Even if you say that awareness is the product of matter and energy, the awareness is also created by God since matter and energy were created by God. In any case, awareness is either direct creation of God or indirect creation of God.

[Swami]

[Replying to Swami in post #1]

Yes, my brain exists. Thank you for asking me. Now go text on your phone and use your computer that was discovered and developed by real brains making real observations.

The human brain and mobiles exist but that does not make them real.

"3 All visible objects have no actual existence. We have no idea of them except through sensation. Inquire into these apprehensions and you will never find them as real."

To even begin to know what's real, scientists need to first discover the origin and nature of consciousness and Universe. It is mind boggling that we have scientists telling us what the world is like without first knowing about the nature of the tool being used to make those observations. When you get consciousness wrong, then logically everything else will be wrong and out of place.

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."
- Max Planck, the father of quantum physics

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Swami in post #5]

The human brain and mobiles exist but that does not make them real.

Yes, it does.

The universe could not have made itself.

A man was made an individual capable of independent thought.

One must believe in the exclusivity of Christianity and the Biblical worldview to truly understand the world around them. Your belief in a conscious universe leads you down a path of deception.

[sridatta]

[Replying to Swami in post #1]

Yes, my brain exists. Thank you for asking me. Now go text on your phone and use your computer that was discovered and developed by real brains making real observations.

The human brain and mobiles exist but that does not make them real.

"3 All visible objects have no actual existence. We have no idea of them except through sensation. Inquire into these apprehensions and you will never find them as real."

To even begin to know what's real, scientists need to first discover the origin and nature of consciousness and Universe. It is mind boggling that we have scientists telling us what the world is like without first knowing about the nature of the tool being used to make those observations. When you get consciousness wrong, then logically everything else will be wrong and out of place.

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."
- Max Planck, the father of quantum physics

While answering questions here, the nature and standard of learning of the present generation is kept in view. When Śaṅkara and other preachers preached in the past, they too kept in view, the standard of learning of the receivers of their knowledge in those times. The context of the current generation is very important in giving good explanations.

The ancient standard used in acquiring and communicating knowledge was tarka or the ancient system of logic. The present standard is science. There is no difference between the ancient logic and science. In both, the common subject is the systematic analysis of creation. Of course, science is superior to ancient logic because the theoretical concepts in science have experimental proof.

For example, sound and volume were said to be the characteristics of space by ancient logic, but science tells us sound cannot travel in empty space and that collisions between the molecules of the medium such as air are necessary for the transmission of sound. Science even proves this concept experimentally.
Science has also proved that awareness is only the work-form of the inert energy functioning in a specific device called the nervous system. It is like the case of electricity functioning in a specific machine called a grinding machine and getting converted into a specific work-form of the electricity, called grinding-work. But some ancient scholars had misunderstood awareness to be the eternal God.

Even in science, concepts and theories get replaced by more advanced concepts and theories over time. This is a natural tendency of both science and logic. Science may supersede logic in certain concepts because it is backed by experimental proof, but both science and logic fail to describe the unimaginable God. Hence, science is greater than mere theoretical logic, but it equally fails before the unimaginable God.

[sridatta]

[Replying to Swami in post #5]

The human brain and mobiles exist but that does not make them real.

Yes, it does.

The universe could not have made itself.

A man was made an individual capable of independent thought.

One must believe in the exclusivity of Christianity and the Biblical worldview to truly understand the world around them. Your belief in a conscious universe leads you down a path of deception.

The first creation that came from God is space or inert energy. Akasa (space) and Tejas (inert energy) are one and the same because space is a form of inert energy only. Matter, work, light, heat, sound, electricity, magnetism and awareness are also other forms of inert energy. Our imagination cannot cross the limits of space.

The link or process of production between God and space is also unimaginable like God. This link is beyond space and God is beyond this link. The space is called as Mahat. The link is called as Avyaktam which means unimaginable. The Parabrahman is mentioned as purusha. The Veda says that Avyaktam is beyond space and purusha is beyond Avyaktam (Mahatah paramavyaktam avyaktat purushah parah).

God is first. Space is second. Air is third. We can explain the generation of third from second, but not the second from first. Second and third are imaginable items. Space or energy became air. Air means atoms. This is energy condensing into matter. This process of condensation is explicable and debatable.

[William]

It is one thing for scientists to acknowledge that we don't experience reality as it is. It's another thing for them to deny help from those who can and have experienced fundamental reality. Scientists that decline the help and insight from others are choosing to remain in ignorance. Should not scientists first learn how to experience what Kant calls the 'noumenal world' before putting any confidence in their theories?

Yoga Vasistha,Book I, ch. 3

2 Valmiki replied:— Know, holy saint, that the things seen in this world are deceiving, even as the blueness of the sky is an optical illusion. Therefore it is better to efface them in oblivion rather than to keep their memory. 3 All visible objects have no actual existence. We have no idea of them except through sensation. Inquire into these apprehensions and you will never find them as real.

Scientists confirm this insight.

From another thread.

[Replying to Swami in post #32]

Swami: To date, scientists do not know how to end suffering. Scientists can not answer any of life's big questions.

William: To date, no culture knows how to end suffering. Suffering appears to be part of the deal of existing within this simulated reality.

Swami:The ultimate goal is getting everyone to a higher level of consciousness which will open them up to a realm of infinite possibilities.

William: The realm of infinite possibilities doesn't appear to be this reality simulation Swami. This one seems to serve another purpose. Perhaps not unrelated to higher realms and possibilities, but I am not convinced we are here to find scientific ways in which to end suffering...

Should not scientists first learn how to experience what Kant calls the 'noumenal world' before putting any confidence in their theories?

Whether they should or not explore the possibilities which will allow them to subjectively experience something alternate to this experience - the one which requires no extra effort to experience - I cannot say, as I do not know how such would change the way things are done here, in this simulated reality Swami.

What I do know, is that scientists are content enough to be able to delve into what this simulation offers, and dissect it as a means of trying to understand it so that it can be made into something useful.

Donald Hoffman has taken the theorems and understood the implications and wants to discover what he is "doing outside of this simulated reality". That is commendable, but to what degree will such information help him to better understand and work with the imprisoned situation he and all of us are experiencing?

Indeed, what help is it to you, to know through experience things outside/alternative to this - the dominant [and temporary] reality simulation?

If it is about ethics, one could argue that the 10 billion USD spent on the Webb telescope so that we could observe clearer pictures of our greater environment seems more a quest to pump up scientist/engineer egos, when such an amount of money could have been better invested in boasting the social needs of millions who are suffering poverty.

However, it could also be argued that money would only be wasted in doing so, if indeed those poor people were not also aware of what you are arguing that scientists should be aware of, and that poor people are equally as guilty of sustaining their own ignorance/not wanting to know what the data is implying.

Perhaps that is exactly why the universe is as it is, and that personalities are entitled to have their experience of it, in whatever way they want to, and the higher realms are set up in relation to that, for further experiences to be had, based upon how one used their experience in this simulation.

I read the following recently.

The Origins of Ascension and Karma{SOURCE}

Origins are murky and always ancient.
In the new age community, ascension is a popular word used to describe many different experiences and processes. I’ll define ascension as broadly as possible for the purposes of this article in the hopes that it will include most perspectives.
At its core, ascension is the realization that we are more than a physical body, and our consciousness is a multi-layered perceiver that is distinct from the body and can ascend into non-physical dimensions. This ascension is not necessarily an after-death experience or process, but can begin at any time that the individual has an awakening or activation.

This belief goes back a very long time. Original Sin, coupled to redemption, is related to the concept of ascension. We have “fallen” into a physical body, into sin, into darkness, into ignorance, and we are redeemed by some form of grace—Christ, God, Spirit, etc. The grace of redemption is an activation, awakening or rebirth. Following this activation, we set a course for spiritual destinations of a higher vibration, a purer state, a state of love and harmony.

All of this sounds good until you realize that the destination is selfish and consists of abandonment. It’s selfish because you are focused on your own spiritual goals and not the whole. It is abandonment because you desire to leave the human levels of earth to explore the higher domains of heaven. You are abandoning earth in favor of heaven. I am not criticizing this orientation. I’m merely pointing out the reality.



The Issues of Selfishness and Abandonment
Let’s take the first issue: selfishness. Most of us have heard of the concept that in order to help others, you must first help yourself. In other words, focus on yourself, learn, learn, learn. We must learn the lessons in order to ascend and keep ascending, or we unhappily return to human (or lesser) form. This is how karma connects to ascension. Karma is the gravity that holds one in bondage to the lower dimensions of experience. It is the countervailing force of ascension.

If we live as an infinite being within a human form, if we truly believe that we are one and equal with all life, where exactly are we hoping to go when we ascend? Can one ascend and leave another human being behind in the clutches of karma and confusion? Can one have enlightenment in a world where wars, poverty, depression and abuse thrive, and truly call it enlightenment?


Ascend into heavenly bliss or nirvana. Is this not selfishness? My point is that you cannot hold the frequency of equality in your heart and focus on ascension for yourself. If you embrace the I AM WE ARE consciousness, if you live to the best of your ability as a Sovereign Integral, you are of the people. You are one and equal. You operate in the interest of achieving realization for all life, and therefore you are not ascending as an individual, but rather gathering the realization of our shared infinite self for all to understand. You are bringing this realization to earth and humanity therein in whatever way you can.

Ascension is a personal deployment of energy and time for personal interest. It can serve a positive purpose, but my point is that it can also deceive you into thinking that you are doing it for the benefit of all, when indeed ascension is birthed from the construct of separation.

Think about it. I ascend apart from those who stay mired in the grip of karma. It makes me better than those who remain stuck to the “spider web” of deception and illusion. It makes me separate. I am with the spiritual elite instead of the enfeebled humans who slog it out in the muds of ignorance. I’m climbing the ladder of consciousness and improving myself. How can that be bad?

It’s not. I’m not judging it as bad or wrong. I am pointing out that the perspective of the Sovereign Integral is that we are equal in our infinite selves. The covering of our infinitude is the human instrument that we all don on earth and this human instrument was designed to refract all quantum objects as being separate from ourselves. The human instrument—its perceptions of experience—reveal only the program, not the infinite being that it so cleverly conceals.

Thus, embracing ascension, as a process, encourages us to be separate. There is no eliteness in the consciousness of the Sovereign Integral. In fact, it is the opposite. It is recognizing that we all live in oneness and equality, and to the best of our abilities we express this in our behaviors. This requires us to pull down pretenses that might otherwise seem advantageous and even transcendent, so we can express our virtuous heart authentically without barriers and judgment.

Let’s take the second issue: abandonment. If we abandon earth and humanity for the sake of spiritual ascension, and that higher place to which we strive remains a fixture of illusion, we abandon one place of illusion for another. How is that improving us?

We’ve all heard the phrase, heaven on earth. It is a very real construct of the Sovereign Integral consciousness. It is the notion that living in a state of realization of one’s infinite self is possible within the human instrument. Until one is realized of their infinite self, they are deluded into thinking that the higher worlds, the light of enlightenment or heavenly realms are their goal.

They are like the woman who leaves her children to experience love with a stranger in a strange land. The love is not real and therefore does not last long, and when she returns to her children they have left her. The maternal bond has been disconnected. When we abandon the material world for the grasp of the spiritual, we lose the bond with the human dimension and the possibility of our role in birthing heaven on earth. We forget that we are all midwives for establishing heaven, or the Sovereign Integral state of consciousness, upon earth, for all human beings to share.

I realize many see the human instrument as the reason why heaven can never occur upon earth. As long as we are human, we are limited and vile. We seek pleasure and survival. We are animals. I understand this belief, but the scope of this process—of birthing the Sovereign Integral consciousness on earth—is not left to chance. It is the purpose of our species to free itself of our delusions, illusions and distortions and look clear-eyed into our depths, and to do this while living on earth in a human body.

This is our calling. Our collective purpose. However long it takes. However hard it is to achieve. It will happen.

A paraphrase of Captain Jean-Luc Picard seems appropriate: we will make it so.

Essentially the above is telling us that we are not here to escape being here, but rather, to bring truth through realization INTO this simulation.

Do you agree?

[sridatta]

William: To date, no culture knows how to end suffering. Suffering appears to be part of the deal of existing within this simulated reality.

Punishment given for a sin is only to change the mind of the soul and purify it. There is no trace of revenge in this. The hell is an indication of the intensive love of God to the souls through which God wants to reform the souls. The hell indicates the hectic effort of God put on the soul to reform it and not to leave the soul for its fate.

A father may leave his son since he is not changing inspite of all his efforts. But in the hell God puts serious effort and succeeds to change the soul. Therefore, even thousands of fathers cannot be equal to God. God is not leaving the soul without changing it and this point is indicated by the punishment and hell.

Therefore, there is no point of excusing the Prarabhdas if this true basis is understood. God will try to change the soul through preaching as far as possible. Punishment in the hell is the last resort. Once the soul is reformed all the sins are smashed since there is neither the necessity of preaching nor the necessity of punishment.

The Divine Father is taking the best care of each soul. Even the punishments given by God here on earth and hereafter in hell, only indicate His anxiety to reform the sinful soul, which is His child. Hell is the reflection of God’s highest kindness, which helps in reforming souls. Hell is not the reflection of His anger or desire for revenge. If we understand this very subtle point, we will be very peaceful about things taking place in this world. There is no error taking place in the divine administration.


Everything taking place in this world is the result of the most perfect working of God’s wonderful administration. No soul can even dream of running the world in a better way than the way it is being run.

It is our utter ignorance that causes us to misunderstand God and stray (stay) away from the path of self-purification. We are ignorant of the deeds of other souls. We are ignorant of the most wonderful divine administration working in the background. We are ignorant of God’s supreme talents and capabilities in administering and reforming souls. Above all, we are ignorant of the supreme kindness of God towards all souls.


We are worried about things, about which we need not be worried at all! People were worried about Jesus when He was carrying the cross. He told them not to worry about Him. He was under the direct supervision of the kindest Lord. Instead, He told them to worry about themselves and their children.

He might have suffered for a few hours, but He was going to sit forever on the right lap of the Divine Father! These people, who were worried about Him, might be living happily on earth for a little while, but they were going to be thrown into the liquid fire forever along with their future generations! So, who should be worried? The spectators or Jesus?


A person may finish off the punishment of his or her sin by suffering for it here. The person may then get a wonderful new divine birth in the immediate future. Another person, who is wasting his time in sympathizing with this suffering person, instead of focusing on his own reformation, may finally get thrown into the liquid fire forever! Hence, it is always advisable to focus on self-rectification than unnecessarily wasting time in investigating and judging God’s administration of this world.



All the punishments are only for reformation of the soul and not for revenge. The hell is created by God not with vengeance against sinners but due to kindness to reform the souls. God is always kind to reform the souls, which are His children since the souls are created by Him.

The father will never have even a trace of vengeance towards his issues. Jesus always addressed God as father and He propagated this concept by saying that all your sins will be excused by God if you are reformed. Practical knowledge, the practical realization, which is the reformation, will cancel all your previous bad deeds or sins as told in Gita (Jnanaagnih….). Except this one way, there is no other way to cancel the sins and escape from all the present problems in the world and future torture in the hell.

If you are not doing any sin, you are excused for all past sins

The results of all your good actions will be separate and will not interfere with the cancellation of sins. God will give you good results for all your prayers and any prayer will not cancel even a trace of your sin. Similarly, your charity.

If these good actions can reform you, then, your sins will be cancelled. Therefore, reformation of the soul is the only way by which God is pleased to cancel your sins. Even if you do not believe in God, it does not matter. If you are not doing any sin, you are excused for all past sins and you will live with immense happiness in the world and after death also.

If you are doing a sin, you are going against the will of God

You cannot please God by prayers and service simultaneously doing sins. If you are doing a sin, you are going against the will of God and you are insulting God. You cannot please and insult God simultaneously. Therefore, every devotee and servant of God should be careful about the concept of the sin and about the only path to cancel the sin.