Exodus - how can this be?

[Rose2020]

I am reading Exodus, about Moses.

I am having great trouble with reconciling the God of love, life and goodness with the events in chapter 32.

How can this be - our God, Father, Creator, ordering violence and murder?

Please someone explain to me. Did God really speak to Moses with the commands in verses 27- 29?

[Miles]

Rose2020 wrote:

it is hard to read of innocent people slaughtered

But they weren't innocent. That's the point. They had committed idolatry and made and worshiped a golden calf.

So you actually believe that the children and little babies god ordered killed in 1 Samuel 15:3 made and worshiped a golden calf?

1 Samuel 15:3
3 Now go fight against the Amalekites. You must completely destroy the Amalekites and everything that belongs to them. Don’t let anything live; you must kill all the men and women and all of their children and little babies. You must kill all of their cattle and sheep and all of their camels and donkeys.’”

Get real.

.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #16]

I am inclined to agree. There is a lot to consider here, none of it simple.

What a man-pleaser you are.

There is nothing complex in what has been said. It's only complex when people like AquinasForGod want to make it complex so as to hide the simple truth. And you, you want to agree for the same reason. Man-pleasers.

Not just ignorance of the Scripture. But 'willful ignorance' of the Scripture.

Rip

The church disagrees with you. You lack a tradition going back to the early Chruch Fathers. I find it odd that people 2000 years later think they can understand what was written as if times have not changed.

Do you also think God is in the sky and rides Cherubim in the clouds? Because the bible says he does.

[Miles]

I am reading Exodus, about Moses.

I am having great trouble with reconciling the God of love, life and goodness with the events in chapter 32.

How can this be - our God, Father, Creator, ordering violence and murder?

Please someone explain to me. Did God really speak to Moses with the commands in verses 27- 29?

You're missing the key to this whole event. i.e., Read Exodus 32:14 and the verses leading up to it: "Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened."

So what do you do with the violence and killings of innocent women, children and little babies that god ordered in 1 Samuel 15:3?

1 Samuel 15:3
3 Now go fight against the Amalekites. You must completely destroy the Amalekites and everything that belongs to them. Don’t let anything live; you must kill all the men and women and all of their children and little babies. You must kill all of their cattle and sheep and all of their camels and donkeys.’”

All of which happened 514 - 683 years after Exodus was written, where it was said that "Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened"? As it stands god's relenting only applies "to the disaster he had threatened," and certainly not to any of the disaster and violence he would exercise against humanity to come. God remained the barbarian he always was.

.

[RIP]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #22]

When you are alluding to verses in the Bible, and asking me questions of certain verses in the Bible, why don't you give them.?

Concerning God's riding upon the Cherubims, if it is (Ezekiel 1) you are referring to, yes of course I believe it. Scripture is clear. (Ezekiel 10:20)

Your church, your tradition disagrees with me. When your church and tradition has come to the place to believe what you said about the Old Testament, post (16), it's time to reject that church and tradition.

Rip

[Revelations won]

Dear Rose2020,

You said:

“Exodus - how can this be?

Post #1

by Rose2020 » Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:31 am
I am reading Exodus, about Moses.

I am having great trouble with reconciling the God of love, life and goodness with the events in chapter 32.

How can this be - our God, Father, Creator, ordering violence and murder?

Please someone explain to me. Did God really speak to Moses with the commands in verses 27- 29?

My response: You have asked some very good and thought provoking questions. I will present to the best of my limited ability some answers to consider.

Is the Lord GOD our creator Soverign over all his creations?

2. Is the Lord GOD omnipotent or all powerful?

3. Are his judgments just and in accordance to the law he has
given?

4. Does the Lord our GOD show mercy to those who are ignorant or uniformed regarding his laws?

5. Is there a much higher level of accountability required of those who have clear or perfect knowledge of his works?

6. Does he have all power to give or take life?

7. What are the blessings of those who are faithful and obedient to the laws and ordinances of the gospel?

8. What should be done with an individual or a society that has sinned away their day of grace and utterly refuses to repent? Or putting it another way they have made the cup of their iniquity FULL?

9. Was this the sad state of those in the days of Noah or in Sodom and Gomorrah whose thoughts and and desires and actions were evil continually??

10. Consider the twelve (12) tribes of Israel which may have been close to 3,000,00 in number who were held in captivity as slaves in Egypt for a long time. They were eye witnesses too the many great miracles the Lord used by the prophet Moses to free the Israelites from bondage. Remember that he could have feed them after the first miracle or any subsequent miracles. These miracles increased in intensity, yet Pharaoh still hardened his heart. It was not until the last miracle with it’s deadly consequences that he finally relented and allowed the Israelites to leave.

11. The Lord still showed mercy to Egypt, yet Pharaoh again hardened his heart and chose to slaughter or enslave the Israelites.
Moses caused the waters of the Red Sea to depart, allowing the children of Israel rot escape Pharaoh and his armies. Pharaoh and his whole army were drowned in this attempt. This great miracle was done to save the
children of Israel. The Egyptian army was not authorized by the Lord to cross the Red sea on dry ground, therefore it was a very bad choice for which they were solely responsible and suffered the deadly consequences.

12. Further the Israelites witnessed another mighty miracle of the Lord by being fed manna.

In light of all these mighty miracles which the Lord did for the full house of Israel they forgot the true and living GOD and went whoring after idol worshipping by building a golden calf.

I find it interesting that there were many who ignored the word given by the Lord to his covenant people regarding idol worshipping. (Exodus 20:3),

I fully understand that some things the Lord has done or that he has asked of his faithful to do are hard to understand, but when fully understood they were calculated to protect the faithful.

It is my witness that God does all things to allow us to achieve our highest degree of salvation and exaltation.

Also we should remember that where much is given to a people there is also much accountability required.

I hope this, in part may help you to gain a clearer insight on why certain things are done.

Kind regards,
RW

[theophile]

I am reading Exodus, about Moses.

I am having great trouble with reconciling the God of love, life and goodness with the events in chapter 32.

How can this be - our God, Father, Creator, ordering violence and murder?

Please someone explain to me. Did God really speak to Moses with the commands in verses 27- 29?

You're missing the key to this whole event. i.e., Read Exodus 32:14 and the verses leading up to it: "Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened."

So what do you do with the violence and killings of innocent women, children and little babies that god ordered in 1 Samuel 15:3?

1 Samuel 15:3
3 Now go fight against the Amalekites. You must completely destroy the Amalekites and everything that belongs to them. Don’t let anything live; you must kill all the men and women and all of their children and little babies. You must kill all of their cattle and sheep and all of their camels and donkeys.’”

All of which happened 514 - 683 years after Exodus was written, where it was said that "Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened"? As it stands god's relenting only applies "to the disaster he had threatened," and certainly not to any of the disaster and violence he would exercise against humanity to come. God remained the barbarian he always was.

.

Three things.

1) It is Samuel talking here, not God. That's always an important difference, since we can't just assume that God's mouthpieces (Moses, Samuel, etc.) are speaking truly for God. Exodus teaches us that, and this story may be no different. i.e., just as Moses talks falsely for God and orders Israel's destruction in Exodus, we should rightly wonder whether Samuel is speaking true or not, or whether like Moses he is caught up in his own anger at the Amalekites and has lost his way.

2) We should also ask whether the deeper lesson of Exodus was acted on here, and whether the humans in this story (Samuel and Saul) fulfilled their role as God's advisor and partner. i.e., let's assume Samuel was speaking true, and that God did order the destruction of all the Amalekites. This would be no different from Exodus where God ordered the destruction of Israel, but where Moses subsequently fulfilled his role and talked God down... So we should rightly wonder whether Samuel (or even Saul) failed in their duties to push back against the rashness of God's order and to help God find the right rule.

3) I'll be the first to say that sometimes terrible things are called for. So I'm not trying to remove God from all such orders as if God's hands are clean and have no blood on them. Rather I'm trying to show how important it is that we engage in such questions, as hard as they may be to confront let alone to answer. And that's kind of the point: the line is not easy to draw, and never something we should take for granted, i.e., when to destroy or when to relent. Hence why the bible stresses this 'pairing' model I keep drawing on to improve the chances of getting it right, i.e., God : Moses = Moses : Aaron = God : Samuel = Samuel : Saul = husband : wife (to use a common biblical metaphor).

As much as it may be ingrained in our heads, God does not act unilaterally in the bible. Or at least, God doesn't want to. Rather it's all about partnership, including all the checks and balances that a partnership has. Just think of a healthy marriage: one of its main functions is to ensure we make the hard calls and that they're the right ones. Just as my wife will rightly push me to make decisions and push back against my worst impulses.

That is the mindset we need to get into to understand these stories.

[Miles]

I am reading Exodus, about Moses.

I am having great trouble with reconciling the God of love, life and goodness with the events in chapter 32.

How can this be - our God, Father, Creator, ordering violence and murder?

Please someone explain to me. Did God really speak to Moses with the commands in verses 27- 29?

You're missing the key to this whole event. i.e., Read Exodus 32:14 and the verses leading up to it: "Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened."

So what do you do with the violence and killings of innocent women, children and little babies that god ordered in 1 Samuel 15:3?

1 Samuel 15:3
3 Now go fight against the Amalekites. You must completely destroy the Amalekites and everything that belongs to them. Don’t let anything live; you must kill all the men and women and all of their children and little babies. You must kill all of their cattle and sheep and all of their camels and donkeys.’”

All of which happened 514 - 683 years after Exodus was written, where it was said that "Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened"? As it stands god's relenting only applies "to the disaster he had threatened," and certainly not to any of the disaster and violence he would exercise against humanity to come. God remained the barbarian he always was.

.

Three things.

1) It is Samuel talking here, not God.

So what? Samuel is citing a direct quote from god. Everything god says in the Bible appears as a quote from someone else, be it Moses, Ezekiel, or Samuel.


1 Samuel 15:1-3
15 One day Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel. Now listen to his message. 2 The Lord All-Powerful says: [please note the quotation marks--->] ‘When the Israelites came out of Egypt, the Amalekites tried to stop them from going to Canaan. I saw what the Amalekites did. 3 Now go fight against the Amalekites. You must completely destroy the Amalekites and everything that belongs to them. Don’t let anything live; you must kill all the men and women and all of their children and little babies. You must kill all of their cattle and sheep and all of their camels and donkeys.’”[<--- unquote]

2) We should also ask whether the deeper lesson of Exodus was acted on here, and whether the humans in this story (Samuel and Saul) fulfilled their role as God's advisor and partner. i.e., let's assume Samuel was speaking true, and that God did order the destruction of all the Amalekites. This would be no different from Exodus where God ordered the destruction of Israel, but where Moses subsequently fulfilled his role and talked God down... So we should rightly wonder whether Samuel (or even Saul) failed in their duties to push back against the rashness of God's order and to help God find the right rule.

So what? God gave a specific order, which Samuel passed onto Saul: "Don’t let anything live; you must kill all the men and women and all of their children and little babies." And that's all that counts here: God's barbaric order.


.

[otseng]

What a man-pleaser you are.

There is nothing complex in what has been said. It's only complex when people like AquinasForGod want to make it complex so as to hide the simple truth. And you, you want to agree for the same reason. Man-pleasers.

Not just ignorance of the Scripture. But 'willful ignorance' of the Scripture.

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[RIP]

[Replying to theophile in post #26]

As to God being accused of being a Barbarian, Yes, He is quite the Barbarian to His enemies.

As to your point #(1), no. It is God speaking. (1 Sam. 15:2) "Thus saith the LORD"

As to your point #(2), no. There is a big difference how God reacts to His people, Israel, and to those who are not His people, the Amalekites.

As to your point #(3), no. What you're tring to do is cast doubt upon the Word of God the Bible, as though it be just mans word.

No, the Bible is not just 'stories'. These are actual historical events and real people. They are given to us by God for our benefit as His people.

Rip

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to RIP in post #24]

Psalms 18: 9 He bowed the heavens and came down;
thick darkness was under his feet.
10 He rode on a cherub and flew;
he came swiftly on the wings of the wind.

2 Samuel 22:11
“And He rode on a cherub and flew;
And He appeared on the wings of the wind.

Isaiah 19:1
The oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

Psalm 68:17
The chariots of God are myriads, thousands upon thousands;
The Lord is among them as at Sinai, in holiness.

Psalm 104:3
He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters;
He makes the clouds His chariot;
He walks upon the wings of the wind;

I can understand why a child might read these verses literally because they might think of God as a being that exists in some place somewhere, some dude in the sky that can fly around in chariots and on cherubim, but why would an adult believe this about God?

God is omniscient so not in a place.

But rather.

1 kings 8:27 “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!