Exodus - how can this be?

[Rose2020]

I am reading Exodus, about Moses.

I am having great trouble with reconciling the God of love, life and goodness with the events in chapter 32.

How can this be - our God, Father, Creator, ordering violence and murder?

Please someone explain to me. Did God really speak to Moses with the commands in verses 27- 29?

[RIP]

@AquinasForGod

I think you meant omnipresent. Post #(31)

Rip

[theophile]

1) It is Samuel talking here, not God.

So what? Samuel is citing a direct quote from god. Everything god says in the Bible appears as a quote from someone else, be it Moses, Ezekiel, or Samuel.

No, there is not a 'direct quote' from God here. A direct quote from God would be like in Exodus 32 where God directly tells Moses to destroy Israel. This is Samuel telling Saul what God apparently said, otherwise please show me the passage where God speaks directly. And no, not everything God says in the bible is a quote from someone else.

See Genesis 1:3 for a prime example - GOD SAID, "Let there be light", and there was light.

Or as mentioned, Exodus 32:7 - THEN THE LORD SAID TO MOSES, "Go down because your people have become corrupt..."

These examples are completely different from 1 Samuel 15:1-2 where SAMUEL SAID TO SAUL, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ..."

So try again?

[theophile]

[Replying to theophile in post #26]

As to your point #(1), no. It is God speaking. (1 Sam. 15:2) "Thus saith the LORD"

See my previous response to Miles. It is Samuel speaking here, not God.

As to your point #(2), no. There is a big difference how God reacts to His people, Israel, and to those who are not His people, the Amalekites.

I agree this could be a factor, but I think the pattern I've identified cuts across this divide between chosen and unchosen people. Ultimately, going back to Genesis 1, all of us are chosen, which we see again in the NT where the grace of God is extended to the Gentiles as much as the Jews.

As to your point #(3), no. What you're tring to do is cast doubt upon the Word of God the Bible, as though it be just mans word.

Why would I cast doubt on the bible? I'm a theist / biblical apologist... I do think it was written by men, but I think that's beside the point and not at all what I was trying to say.

No, the Bible is not just 'stories'. These are actual historical events and real people. They are given to us by God for our benefit as His people.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

[RIP]

[Replying to theophile in post #33]

As I said, (1 Samuel 15:2-3) is the Word of the Lord. "Thus saith the LORD". Samuel is but the mouthpiece. It is the LORD speaking.

Concerning the Amalekites God had already declared He was their enemy forever. (Ex. 17:16) Grace and salvation is extended to the Gentiles in the New Testament. That is an individual basis. It doesn't change God's attitude towards the Amalekites as a people. I don't know what you mean by 'all of us are chosen'. Makes no sense. If all are chosen then none are chosen. I certainly don't see it in the Scripture.

One can be a theist and an apologist and be wrong in his view of God and His Word, the Bible. The Bible was written by men inspired by God. And thus the Bible is not the word of men. It is the Word of God.

See, the Bible to you is just stories. Not literal history and people. Thus you can make up your own stories in interpreting it. Was Adam and Eve just a story? Was Jesus just a story to make us feel good and to do better?

Indeed we do disagree.

Rip

[theophile]

[Replying to theophile in post #33]

As I said, (1 Samuel 15:2-3) is the Word of the Lord. "Thus saith the LORD". Samuel is but the mouthpiece. It is the LORD speaking.

Then why does the LORD do things like in Exodus 32, where the LORD says one thing in verse 14, and then Moses speaks for the LORD and says the complete opposite in verse 27? Please explain what the LORD is doing here and why the LORD is being so confusing making such opposite statements as is the case here.

Concerning the Amalekites God had already declared He was their enemy forever. (Ex. 17:16) Grace and salvation is extended to the Gentiles in the New Testament. That is an individual basis. It doesn't change God's attitude towards the Amalekites as a people. I don't know what you mean by 'all of us are chosen'. Makes no sense. If all are chosen then none are chosen. I certainly don't see it in the Scripture.

Who was made in God's image in Genesis 1? Was it a subset of humankind or all of us? Who did God come to serve? Just the lost sheep of Israel or the Gentiles as well? See Matthew 15 for instance, and the story of the Canaanite woman who puts Jesus in his place for thinking the way you do here.

One can be a theist and an apologist and be wrong in his view of God and His Word, the Bible. The Bible was written by men inspired by God. And thus the Bible is not the word of men. It is the Word of God.

What does 'inspired by God' mean? Did God whisper sweet words into the writers' ears and they simply wrote down everything God said? Far more likely that the bible was written like any other literary artifact. Inspired, yes, but more likely the writers were inspired by an idea of God. (Inspired does not mean being told verbatim what to write. That would be dictation, not inspiration.)

See, the Bible to you is just stories. Not literal history and people. Thus you can make up your own stories in interpreting it. Was Adam and Eve just a story? Was Jesus just a story to make us feel good and to do better?

Even if what you say is true, you're not relieved of needing to interpret the texts (no different from me), so not sure how that's somehow a point against me.

And yes to both. Genesis 2-3 is definitely just a story. As for Jesus, there's probably more truth to that one. But certainly not a level of truth that we should take the gospels literally.

[Miles]

1) It is Samuel talking here, not God.

So what? Samuel is citing a direct quote from god. Everything god says in the Bible appears as a quote from someone else, be it Moses, Ezekiel, or Samuel.

No, there is not a 'direct quote' from God here. A direct quote from God would be like in Exodus 32 where God directly tells Moses to destroy Israel. This is Samuel telling Saul what God apparently said, otherwise please show me the passage where God speaks directly. And no, not everything God says in the bible is a quote from someone else.

...............

.

[RIP]

[Replying to theophile in post #35]

That which the LORD repented of in (Ex. 32:14) was destroying the people of Israel completely who He had made from Abraham and then beginning a new people starting with Moses. (Ex. 32:10) The judgement would still come, but not in total and the Abrahamic covenant would remain .

When God created Adam and Eve and gave them dominion over the earth and told them to multiply over the face of the earth, all was good. Sin was not present in the world. Those who were to be born of Adam and Eve, at that moment, were the people of God. But once the serpent came and seduced Eve, who in turn caused Adam to fall, another seed line is introduced into the world. Satan's. (Gen. 3:15) Thus when their firstborn Cain was born, he was not of God. (1 John 3:12) And no amount of love would make Cain a child of God.

God didn't come to serve anyone. God planned to redeem those who were lost. God came to deliver His people from one slave master, Satan, to another Slave Master, Him.

No, your definition of 'inspiration' is just a man made inspiration. The inspiration concerning the writing of the Bible is that the Holy Spirit so inspired the writers to write that they wrote the very words God wanted written. Didn't have to be dictation. The Holy Spirit worked with man so that man wrote the words of God. Miraculous. The only written Words of God on the earth is the Bible.

The point against you is that you cast doubt upon the Bible as the Word of God which is what I said in the first place. The point against you is you don't know what is the Word of God and what isn't...cause....according to you it's all just stories. You don't even know if Jesus really existed as a real Person.

Yet, by your own words, you're a 'theist' and an 'apologist'. Which means nothing, as you can see.

Rip

[theophile]

[Replying to theophile in post #35]
The point against you is that you cast doubt upon the Bible as the Word of God which is what I said in the first place. The point against you is you don't know what is the Word of God and what isn't...cause....according to you it's all just stories. You don't even know if Jesus really existed as a real Person.

Yet, by your own words, you're a 'theist' and an 'apologist'. Which means nothing, as you can see.

Rip

I do not doubt that the words of God in the bible are the word of God, or that the bible itself reveals the true God. I will defend every last word from God from first to last, as well as the God that stands behind them.

What I doubt is the words that men speak in the bible and even those where men speak on behalf of God. Even if they are words from biblical heroes like Moses or even Jesus, in the example I gave you (Matthew 15). I'm not saying they're all wrong, or even mostly wrong, or anything like that. But only that they're not always the word of God either, as is the case in Exodus 32, when Moses spoke the exact opposite of God's final words.

That is part of the beauty and trick of the bible: discerning especially amongst the words of men which ones are true...

I also doubt the literal truth of it all, in the sense of it being historically the case. I just really don't think that this matters, or should be a criterion for us accepting God's word in the bible, or that the God revealed by the bible is God. If the words of God are true, and if the God of the bible is God, then they should stand above such things as whether or not the books are historical fact, shouldn't they?

[RIP]

[Replying to theophile in post #38]

You are a contradiction, theist and apologist.

You word your definition of the Bible in terms to show you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God.

All the Words in the Bible are the Word of God. Not just the ones you want to claim.

You speak 'blasphemy' when you speak of 'the beauty and trick of the Bible'. You treat God's Word as a trick. Good luck.

The Words of God in the Bible, all words written in the Bible, are true. The God of the Bible is God, the only God. The history recorded in the Bible is true history.

You don't know what you believe.

Rip

[2timothy316]

[Replying to theophile in post #35]
The point against you is that you cast doubt upon the Bible as the Word of God which is what I said in the first place. The point against you is you don't know what is the Word of God and what isn't...cause....according to you it's all just stories. You don't even know if Jesus really existed as a real Person.

Yet, by your own words, you're a 'theist' and an 'apologist'. Which means nothing, as you can see.

Rip

I do not doubt that the words of God in the bible are the word of God, or that the bible itself reveals the true God. I will defend every last word from God from first to last, as well as the God that stands behind them.

What I doubt is the words that men speak in the bible...

This is an oxymoron.

The Bible is the truth but it was written by men so it's not the truth.

If you doubt them then who do you trust? Are you one of those of many that claim to hear the word of God at night or whatever?