If God is good, why is there evil, suffering and death?

[DaveD49]

EDIT:SORRY, BUT I CREATED CONFUSION WITH THE QUESTION BY THE TITLE I GAVE THE POST. THE ACTUAL QUESTION IS WHERE IT SAYS "SUBJECT FOR DEBATE" BUT IF YOU HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE VIEW FEEL FREE TO POST IT, BUT I AM LOOKING FOR FEEDBACK ON THE ANSWER I GAVE. IF YOU CAN POINT TO SOMETHING WHERE I AM WRONG OR SOMETHING I MAY HAVE MISSED.

This question has been often brought up by atheists and rightfully so. It has also been extremely difficult for theists to answer who stumble over explanations. I am not trying to say that "I have THE answer", but I think I might claim that I have a possible answer.

SUBJECT FOR DEBATE: DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THE FOLLOWING AS A POSSIBLE ANSWER FOR THE QUESTION OF IF A GOOD GOD EXISTS WHY IS THERE EVIL, PAIN, SUFFERING, AND DEATH IN THE WORLD?
Please state whether you agree or disagree.
Please explain why you feel that way.

I most certainly do believe as John says in his letter that "God is love. He who abides in love abides in God and God in him." (1John 4:16)

Love by its very nature must be shared, hence this may be the reason why God created us as living souls. Love is best when it is returned, so yes, He wants us to love Him in return. However love cannot be "forced" to love and have it remain love. By its very nature love has to be freely given. So it would be impossible for God to create us "already loving". Certainly He could do that but that would never be true love. Love MUST be freely given. But it would be impossible to do that while we were still in the presence of God. Certainly we could have devotion and awe, but that is not love. In my mind I believe that this is the state of the angels who have not gone through the process of learning how to love.

So, how do we learn to love? First of we had to be given the complete freedom to do any and all evil even though that leads away from God and love, because it is only when we are free to do evil that we are also free to reject that evil and do the good that leads towards God and love. You cannot have "good" without the possibility of "evil". This could not be in the direct presence of God as direct knowledge of Him would skew our free choices. Hence the reason for the creation of the physical realm and why we are only given "hints" of His existence.

Secondly we had to be given pain, suffering, toil and death. These were the "punishments" in the Bible which were given to Adam and Eve for their eating from "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". In other words we were given a conscience. In my mind this is the most important point of the Adam and Eve story be cause it essentially describes man becoming fully human when He was given a conscience. We no longer lived by instinct as other animal do; instead we are given the insatiable desire to seek the greater good (or the greater evil). This is what has led us from trees to the ground, from the ground to caves, to huts, to houses, to skyscrapers, and also led us from stones to spears, to arrows, to guns, and to thermonuclear weapons. Every decision we make is based on the conscience.... which way would it be better to turn? Right or left? We are asking ourselves which way would be the "better good". So the existence of evil plays an extremely important part of human development.

What about pain, suffering, toil and death? When you think about it you will realize that is only through our personal experience of these, and how they hurt, either in ourselves of a member of our social circle, that we can learn compassion and sympathy for someone else experiencing the same thing. This starts only within our own social circle. But compassion and sympathy teach us to care about even those outside of our social circle. And it is caring about the stranger that leads us to true selfless love.

This whole thing came to my mind when I realized that the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" meant man being given a conscience. Everything else followed after that. I used to dismiss the A&E story as a simple story of creation, but now I see it as one of the most profound in all human literature because with thought it gives the reason for our existence, the reason for evil, the reason for pain, suffering and death, and what our goal should be in this physical realm: to learn true selfless love.

[JehovahsWitness]

Re: If God is good, why is there evil, suffering and death?

BIBLICAL ANSWER: To settle the universal issue of sovereinty; meaning, to allow humanity to see whether humans are better off ruling themselves independent of God or if its better to have God to rule.




LESSON 8 :Why Does God Allow Evil and Suffering?
https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/goo ... suffering/

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SATAN , HUMAN SUFFERING and .... THE ISSUE OF UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGNTY

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[William]

The nature of our circumstance has it that humans had regarded suffering/pain/death as being nothing unnatural/unusual except when the idea was introduced of being within a creation and therefore implying that there is a creator ["GOD"] - thus introduces the idea of suffering/pain/death as being some form of punishment for something called 'sin', rather than simply there being nothing unnatural/unusual about the process.

Explaining 'why' we exist within a creation alongside ideas of creator/creators by introducing the concept of humans having developed the mysterious attribute of 'free will' which sets them aside from other animals, because the concept begs the question - not as to why we exist, so much as why we exist within this particular type of creation and why we developed a sense of having a 'free will' rather than a will which previously responded automatically to the environment - 'free will' must have developed alongside the notion that suffering/pain/death shouldn't be regarded as something natural, but rather, something unnatural.

This about face needs to be explained before the problem of evil goes away.

Given that thinking about suffering/pain/death as being unnatural flies in the face of the evidence, whereby guilt emerges from the human psyche and stories developed to 'explain' why the guilt is there.

Meanwhile, suffering/pain/death continue on as they always have done - naturally enough...so perhaps the explanation to why they do, is not to be found in the introduction of 'sin' but explaining that *sin has to do with humans unnaturally forcing suffering/pain/death upon others just for kicks, or cultural advancement, laws proclaimed to be ethical, monetary gains, land grabs, cultural appropriation et al...

and in that, any GOD-creator allows this right of passage [aka "Love"] as a means of sorting out the useful from the useless/less useful, utilizing the conditions of this universe in order to do so...

...which begs the questions related to the purpose of suffering/pain/death aligned to the message of love which promises and eventual end to those things - if not [for now] in nature, [re this universe] then certainly in the promise of not actually dying just because the body-set the individual was grown within, eventual dies of natural enough causes - or even of not so naturally enough causes [such as being murdered et al as per [*]

At one point in human evolution, such actions re [*] might have also simply been regarded as 'natural', but even the meat-eating beasts of the field - scary as they might be - do not take their freedom to kill to the extremes humans have chosen to...

[DaveD49]

Re: If God is good, why is there evil, suffering and death?

BIBLICAL ANSWER: To settle the universal issue of sovereinty; meaning, to allow humanity to see whether humans are better off ruling themselves independent of God or if its better to have God to rule.




LESSON 8 :Why Does God Allow Evil and Suffering?
https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/goo ... suffering/

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SATAN , HUMAN SUFFERING and .... THE ISSUE OF UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGNTY

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

The actual question was whether or not you agree with the answer which I gave. But I certainly do not see it as a question of if man was ready to rule himself. God gave us intelligence. He knew that may would attempt to rule themselves.

[Miles]

Re: If God is good, why is there evil, suffering and death?

BIBLICAL ANSWER: To settle the universal issue of sovereinty; meaning, to allow humanity to see whether humans are better off ruling themselves independent of God or if its better to have God to rule.

But in the very beginning, before the apple incident, god would have had no reason to see whether humans are better off ruling themselves independent of God or if its better to have God to rule. Correct? Therefore, such a reason only came about because after A&E ate the apple they came to know evil. Now, why did god feel it necessary to allow such knowledge to spread among all those who followed? Couldn't god have allowed Cain and Able to be born without knowing evil and stop its spread right there? After all, god could do anything he wanted to, right? But evidently he preferred to have evil as the operative norm among humans, which makes you kind of wonder about the guy, doesn't it?

Then there's the fact that being omniscient god knew before he even created A and E that they would eventually know evil, which he would then allow to spread among all those who followed. So what's behind this need to create creatures who would end up suffering, sometimes for their entire lives? As it stands, it looks as if god is the greatest sadist of all time.


.

[DaveD49]

[Replying to William in post #3]

William: "Explaining 'why' we exist within a creation alongside ideas of creator/creators by introducing the concept of humans having developed the mysterious attribute of 'free will' which sets them aside from other animals, because the concept begs the question - not as to why we exist, so much as why we exist within this particular type of creation and why we developed a sense of having a 'free will' rather than a will which previously responded automatically to the environment - 'free will' must have developed alongside the notion that suffering/pain/death shouldn't be regarded as something natural, but rather, something unnatural."

I should have rephrased the question. The question asked was not really about why there is evil and suffering but rather if you agree or disagree with my explanation of what I think is a possible answer.
To answer your reply I don't think that it is free will that separates us from other animals. All animals are free to go and do what they want. I think the separation point was when man was given a conscience. We no longer live by instinct but rather base ALL of our decisions on a gradation of better/worse, good/evil which is the function of the conscience.

I know I am tired, but I wasn't sure of the point you were making in the rest of your post.

[DaveD49]

Re: If God is good, why is there evil, suffering and death?

BIBLICAL ANSWER: To settle the universal issue of sovereinty; meaning, to allow humanity to see whether humans are better off ruling themselves independent of God or if its better to have God to rule.

But in the very beginning, before the apple incident, god would have had no reason to see whether humans are better off ruling themselves independent of God or if its better to have God to rule. Correct? Therefore, such a reason only came about because after A&E ate the apple they came to know evil. Now, why did god feel it necessary to allow such knowledge to spread among all those who followed? Couldn't god have allowed Cain and Able to be born without knowing evil and stop its spread right there? After all, god could do anything he wanted to, right? But evidently he preferred to have evil as the operative norm among humans, which makes you kind of wonder about the guy, doesn't it?

Then there's the fact that being omniscient god knew before he even created A and E that they would eventually know evil, which he would then allow to spread among all those who followed. So what's behind this need to create creatures who would end up suffering, sometimes for their entire lives? As it stands, it looks as if god is the greatest sadist of all time.


.

Please read my question where it says "Topic for Debate"

[TRANSPONDER]

Let's put my theist hat on. And let's take what I find is the mainstream view of God, Jesus, Bible, Theology and heaven. Like the God -question: if there is a different concept of what these are, that is a different question and answer.

So, God has started creating. He has it all planned out. one way or the other. He puts humans on earth, made with the capacity to behave wrongly and the ability to do it (give or take whether God made sure that was put into action). So the whole sorry mess sets off with admonitions to be good and hints how to do it, but we have to do it ourselves as 'God does not want Robots', a Theists' 'slogan' for atheists do a 10 point video critiquing. In the end (so the Plan goes), yumung beans are mentally fitted to be with God in heaven, with or without a little Pauline searing or Catholic purgatory to make them Perfect.

That's why we have evil and God allows it. I find it quite unconvincing, even aside from the Bible, and the go - to hypothesis is, it would look the same if there was no god at all, there is no good logical or scientific evidence of a god, so probably there isn't.

[Miles]

[/i][/b]This question has been often brought up by atheists and rightfully so. It has also been extremely difficult for theists to answer who stumble over explanations. I am not trying to say that "I have THE answer", but I think I might claim that I have a possible answer.

SUBJECT FOR DEBATE: DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THE FOLLOWING AS A POSSIBLE ANSWER FOR THE QUESTION OF IF A GOOD GOD EXISTS WHY IS THERE EVIL, PAIN, SUFFERING, AND DEATH IN THE WORLD?
Please state whether you agree or disagree.
Please explain why you feel that way.

I most certainly do believe as John says in his letter that "God is love. He who abides in love abides in God and God in him." (1John 4:16)

Love by its very nature must be shared,

Aside from you, who says so? And even if others do agree with you, why is it necessarily a "must"?

Love is best when it is returned . . . .

So best love is a conditional love. Interesting. Sounds rather self-serving if you ask me, and even if you don't ask me.

However love cannot be "forced" to love and have it remain love.

"Love cannot be "forced" to love"?? So now love is an acting agent of some kind as well as an intense feeling of deep affection. How very curious.

By its very nature love has to be freely given.

Because you say so, I take it, or do you have an actual explanation of this "nature"?

So it would be impossible for God to create us "already loving".

And here I always thought that with god all things are possible. I must have read a whole different Bible. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Nope, all 59 Bibles say the same thing (Matthew 19:26 and Mark 10:27)

Certainly He could do that but that would never be true love.

Then why bring it up?

Love MUST be freely given.

Now, are you talking about "already loving" love or "true love" love?

But it would be impossible to do that while we were still in the presence of God.

Why? Why couldn't you freely give love in god's presence? Sitting across from him at the breakfast table why couldn't you freely give him your love?

In my mind I believe that this is the state of the angels who have not gone through the process of learning how to love.

Why? Why would this rather odd state come to mind?

So, how do we learn to love?

"Learn" like in educated. "Please turn to page 17"? I don't know about you or anyone else, but I don't ever recall "learning" to love." All I remember love as is an involuntary expression of deep affection.

............... Love: No Learning Required.


Gotta stop now. I have some business to take care of, but I'll be back to finish a look at your take on love and hopefully get to the part on Evil.

.

[William]

[Replying to DaveD49 in post #6]

William: "Explaining 'why' we exist within a creation alongside ideas of creator/creators by introducing the concept of humans having developed the mysterious attribute of 'free will' which sets them aside from other animals, because the concept begs the question - not as to why we exist, so much as why we exist within this particular type of creation and why we developed a sense of having a 'free will' rather than a will which previously responded automatically to the environment - 'free will' must have developed alongside the notion that suffering/pain/death shouldn't be regarded as something natural, but rather, something unnatural."

I should have rephrased the question. The question asked was not really about why there is evil and suffering but rather if you agree or disagree with my explanation of what I think is a possible answer.

I understand. At this point I am undecided.

To answer your reply I don't think that it is free will that separates us from other animals. All animals are free to go and do what they want. I think the separation point was when man was given a conscience. We no longer live by instinct but rather base ALL of our decisions on a gradation of better/worse, good/evil which is the function of the conscience.

"Explaining 'why' we exist within a creation alongside ideas of creator/creators by introducing the concept of humans having developed the mysterious attribute of conscience which sets them aside from other animals, because the concept begs the question - not as to why we exist, so much as why we exist within this particular type of creation and why we developed a sense of having a conscience rather than a will which previously responded automatically to the environment – conscience must have developed alongside the notion that suffering/pain/death shouldn't be regarded as something natural, but rather, something unnatural."