Follow the law, obey masters, honour parents...

[Purple Knight]

"Honour thy mother and thy father."

"Slaves, obey your masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them exactly as you would serve Christ."

"Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands as you do to the Lord."

"Obey the laws."

Question for debate: What exactly do you do in case of conflict with God's laws?

I'm aware of the apologetic that this submission is relative and it does make sense that there has to be a hierarchy to these things and God's laws come first especially if someone is telling you to commit a mortal sin. But what's on the table at the moment are the particulars of how to behave in case of a conflict. As nothing is giving wives or slaves the right to run away, and all these situations are essentially the same situation, I'm guessing you just stand there, say, "Nope." and deal with the earthly consequences, even if that's being arrested.

I do have to admit that a government will have a hard time arresting everyone if they do this. If you've got enough people it's very Ghandi-ish and likely to garner sympathy.

[2timothy316]

Their numbers actually grew! So what happened?

Well, they got good PR if the press merely reported what happened. 90% of people aren't absolute refuse bins and have empathy for those being unilaterally bullied.

That might be plausible except Russia's 'press' is not a free press. It is owned by the state. So there was no known good press about JWs in the USSR during it's rein.

Even in today's Russia JWs are called extremist and terrorists by the press in Russia and are treated as such. There are a few reports of citizens burning down JW's houses and teachers trying to get the state to take children away from their parents because the teachers think the parents are terrorists. The only good press JWs get in Russia these days is so that people will not look too closely at what is happening to them.

In the rest of the world though, from what history shows in the 20th century, JWs are kind of the canary in the cave when it comes to bad acting empires. When they are being persecuted for seemingly no reason by a super power then the world starts paying more attention as what exactly is that country up to. So it shouldn't be really any surprise that Jehovah's Witnesses are banned in Russia in 2016 claiming they are terrorists, only to watch Russia invade a whole country claiming that country harbors terrorist.

I respect JWs and Mormons a lot. Not only do you fellows actually know your own lore, but you've been historically bullied. When I read what happened to the Mormons in Utah, how they did not allow them to marry multiple women, and how the Mormons take that on the chin as opposed to other groups who will squeal and whine like stuck pigs, demanding this and that and right rights rights piled up to the moon, I respect the squealing demanding group less, and the honourable group more.

When people talk about the right to marry who they want (including two or more women) as a fundamental extension of religious protections, I roll my eyes and wonder if they have any plans to make right what the American government did to the Mormons as part of that package, or if they're just reactively greasing a squeaky wheel without having thought about the issue in the slightest measure.

Jehovah's Witness have a certain view of people's beliefs. "Now if it seems bad to you to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve." Joshua 24:15
Everyone should be allowed the choice on who they will serve and there is nothing in the Law of the Christ that says that we should attempt to prevent anyone from worshiping the way they want to. That doesn't mean we agree with their worship, but we also have not been given the authority war against those we don't agree with. We don't even vote for laws to keep someone worshiping they way see fit or live their life they way to live.

However, we also feel that everyone should be warned for their choice, the Bible continues, “You are not able to serve Jehovah, for he is a holy God; he is a God who requires exclusive devotion. He will not pardon your transgressions and your sins. If you abandon Jehovah and serve foreign gods, he will also turn against you and exterminate you." Joshua 24:19, 20

Note its not any person that will judge others for their actions. If it sounds harsh, well, we didn't write it. Yet, we feel we have an obligation to point others to it. This is where we get the 'extremist' tag.

[Purple Knight]

Note its not any person that will judge others for their actions. If it sounds harsh, well, we didn't write it. Yet, we feel we have an obligation to point others to it. This is where we get the 'extremist' tag.

See, I like you for this, and I hate people who believe a principle (or say they do, I don't even know if they do) but pull it back to the norm even to the point of making exceptions and violating that belief whenever they feel it is necessary.

1) If somebody respects the norm, and their belief conflicts, they're welcome to think along the lines of, well, you know, if you have to hide your belief because you know what will happen then you kind of know you're doing something wrong. And they're welcome to revise their beliefs.

2) They're also welcome to stand by their beliefs, even though this will be difficult.

But people don't pick one. They try to have it all. And then they get the most respect because they seem to be doing #2 so they get all the oh-he's-so-brave but instead they change to #1 when it gets difficult. Well, all the respect most people give to these wishywashers goes to people like you who have the chutzpah to actually believe what they believe. Even if I disagree. Even if it seems extreme to me. One person who actually has the courage to believe what they believe, even if their beliefs are diametrically opposed to mine, is worth 100 wishywashers who seem to be agreeing with me.

[2timothy316]

Note its not any person that will judge others for their actions. If it sounds harsh, well, we didn't write it. Yet, we feel we have an obligation to point others to it. This is where we get the 'extremist' tag.

See, I like you for this, and I hate people who believe a principle (or say they do, I don't even know if they do) but pull it back to the norm even to the point of making exceptions and violating that belief whenever they feel it is necessary.

1) If somebody respects the norm, and their belief conflicts, they're welcome to think along the lines of, well, you know, if you have to hide your belief because you know what will happen then you kind of know you're doing something wrong. And they're welcome to revise their beliefs.

2) They're also welcome to stand by their beliefs, even though this will be difficult.

But people don't pick one. They try to have it all. And then they get the most respect because they seem to be doing #2 so they get all the oh-he's-so-brave but instead they change to #1 when it gets difficult. Well, all the respect most people give to these wishywashers goes to people like you who have the chutzpah to actually believe what they believe. Even if I disagree. Even if it seems extreme to me. One person who actually has the courage to believe what they believe, even if their beliefs are diametrically opposed to mine, is worth 100 wishywashers who seem to be agreeing with me.

“The word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, . . . and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.”​—Heb. 4:12.

The above is what you're basically describing. Someone reads something in the Bible that sounds extremist to them, it is meant to sound extremist for a reason. It shows who is actually willing to follow Jehovah God. It exposes their hearts and intentions. What do we find? Exactly what you said, they do 2 until 1 sounds better when things get difficult. Now, why am I and millions of other JWs different. We show people the warnings in the Bible because we care for them and want them to have eternal life. To make it more personal, I care for people. Is it tough, yeah it is, but worth it if I find a heart that is receptive. Of course I try to show the love of God before the warning, just like Joshua did.

Yet, imagine you are with a loved one in a car and they are driving. They begin to fall asleep at the wheel and begin veering toward a cliff. At first you say something softly, "Hey, are you awake?" No response. You try something a bit more firm. Like nudging them. That doesn't work. Now, as your are both about to hit the guardrail, you finally smack them on the face. Oh they wake up all right, they miss the cliff, but they might temporarily be pretty mad at you, because it's wrong to hit people. Now, they have two choices. Stay mad for awhile yet after examination realize they were in danger and they thank you for your intervention. Or they they do not except that they were ever in danger and stay mad at you for the rest of their life for the pain you caused. This is what JWs deal with, because we 'hit' people with words they don't want to read or hear. We prefer they hear the "Hey, are you awake" or the nudge. Yet when that doesn't work then we use the last resort, the smack. But why do it? We do the same reason Jesus suffered and died for all mankind. He loved mankind yes but that was not his main reason. "But for the world to know that I love the Father, I am doing just as the Father has commanded me to do." John 14:31. To do it for any other reason is unsustainable and that is why people switch from 2 to 1.

To just give up and join the wishywashers does sound appealing...until I think about what that would do to Jehovah. It would hurt Him and disappoint Him after how much love He showed by what He sent His Son to do for me. What else can I do but show my love in return by not being wishwashy but holding firm to what He desires to see. What is that? "[God] is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9 And for that desire to even partially come true, it will require the breaking of some of mankind's laws in some lands. We feel our love for God and neighbor is more important.