Why Would God Make Rules Subjugating Women?

[Diogenes]

This subtopic takes as a given that all three major Abrahamic religions developed laws to control or subjugate women to a different or lesser status. That is taken as a given for the purpose of this thread. Anyone who doubts the Abrahamic religions have, historically, fashioned rules for men to control women is advised to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and ... _religions and start their own, separate topic for discussion, rather than argue that here.

The question for debate in this topic is "Why would God make rules that allow for the subjugation and control of women by men? The current example of such subjugation in its extreme form deals with the morality police in Iran, punishing and allegedly even murdering women for not 'properly' covering their hair with the hijab.
https://www.npr.org/2022/09/21/11242372 ... ity-police
But historically similar rules have been endorsed by both Jewish and Christian scriptures as well.

[bjs1]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

One question for clarification: Are you saying that religion has been used to subjected women, or that in Judaism and Christianity* God has created laws designed to subjugate women?


*I set aside Islam, which does have laws specifically about women being subjugated to men.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

God hasn't made rules subjugating women.

These are clearly the ideas of humans.

Mary is the highest being in heaven beside God.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #3]

I'd say you almost validated the OP.

Yes, Mary queen of heaven (according to Vatican Dogma,which has no logical or evidential validity) but subordinate to God. And frankly, not superior to Jesus. Indeed I have heard Christian apologists furiously deny that Mariolatry has supplanted Jesus. So yes, women all get the 2nd class citizen position in religion. Buddhism too, of which i have some experience, makes women inferior and subordinate by doctrine. And one sees a familiar patriarchal view - the women are there to serve the monks, whether as nuns or lay persons.

Which explains why Paul is quoted as refuting the idea that women are treated as subordinates and inferiors by male -dominated religion. Paulis always going to make useof women as his flying monkeys and enablers to facilitate the religion that gives him his authority. They may organise, fundraise, distribute leaflets provide tea and buns at the love -feasts. But they must cover their heads, stand at the back and keep silent.

And if any proof of what we all know is so, despite the excuses and denials, it was a long battle before women could preach,minister or - hardest battle, become bishops, and in Catholicism, they still can't.

Yes, I totally agree, this is just what men do. It always has been.

[DaveD49]

This subtopic takes as a given that all three major Abrahamic religions developed laws to control or subjugate women to a different or lesser status. That is taken as a given for the purpose of this thread. Anyone who doubts the Abrahamic religions have, historically, fashioned rules for men to control women is advised to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and ... _religions and start their own, separate topic for discussion, rather than argue that here.

The question for debate in this topic is "Why would God make rules that allow for the subjugation and control of women by men? The current example of such subjugation in its extreme form deals with the morality police in Iran, punishing and allegedly even murdering women for not 'properly' covering their hair with the hijab.
https://www.npr.org/2022/09/21/11242372 ... ity-police
But historically similar rules have been endorsed by both Jewish and Christian scriptures as well.

Most of the Bible, even where it says "this is a law from God' it was talking about laws made by man in which God had nothing to do with it. It was the thinking of society 2000 to 3500 years ago. Society did not begin to change until the message of love and equality taught by Christ began to spread. You show weigh even the Bible in light of Christ's message of love. If it speaks about love and understanding, then it is from God. If is doesn't speak of love, then it is made by man. Do not think that every word of the Bible is the literal truth.

[Diogenes]

What was there about

This subtopic takes as a given that all three major Abrahamic religions developed laws to control or subjugate women to a different or lesser status. That is taken as a given for the purpose of this thread. Anyone who doubts the Abrahamic religions have, historically, fashioned rules for men to control women is advised to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and ... _religions and start their own, separate topic for discussion, rather than argue that here;

that was so hard to understand?

Rather than debate the topic, you choose to debate whether or not the Bible makes laws that call for the subjugation of women. It clearly does. The excuse several of you make is the argument that
Scripture is written by men not God
Fine. I accept that. Men, not God, wrote the books of the Bible.

Parenthetically, I agree that Jesus, as opposed to most Biblical authors, does, by his life and parables, suggest that women have full equality with men. The question for debate is WHY would a GOD issue laws subjugating women. So far the answer appears to be that a true GOD would not. Thus, the Bible is the work of men, not God.

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes.That was always going to be the response."Anything bad,man gets the blame, anything good, Religion gets the credit". That aside, God -apologists will deny that there is any subjugation of women and point to this or that (e.g A4G's Mariolatry) example of the Rebbitzin rushing about organising fundraising activities, but the Rabbi dominates the Synagogue, not her. It is still under the control of and something of an enabler for, a male - dominated institution, though some of those nuns can be pretty dominating.

[POI]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

God hasn't made rules subjugating women.

These are clearly the ideas of humans.

Mary is the highest being in heaven beside God.

When doing a simple google search for "can a woman be a catholic priest?":

"In the Catholic and Orthodox Christian traditions, women are not permitted to be ordained as priests of the church. According to Catholic doctrine, priests are supposed to represent the likeness of Jesus, a male figure."

And your last statement is unfalsifiable. Hence, I'm not going to even entertain such an unfalsifiable assertion about "Mary".

[POI]

Thus, the Bible is the work of men, not God.[/size]

If this is the case, why is the Bible any more authoritative than ANY other book?

And if one wishes to excuse the parts they do not like, as being the works of men; and the parts they do like, as being the input of god, then it still more-so stands to reason that the Bible is no more a book of fact than any other claimed holy book.

[Miles]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

God hasn't made rules subjugating women.

Really!

First of all, keep in mind that All scripture is from god.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. "

and

Proverbs 30:5-6
"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. "

Which means everything that follows here is from god himself.

Genesis 3:16 [God says women will be ruled over (subjugated by) by their husbands]
16 Then God said to the woman,

“I will cause you to have much trouble
    when you are pregnant.
And when you give birth to children,
    you will have much pain.
You will want your husband very much,
    but he will rule over you.”


Exodus 21:7-11 [No such fate is ever said to befall a son---the subjugation is sex specific]
7 “A man might decide to sell his daughter as a slave. If this happens, the rules for making her free are not the same as the rules for making the men slaves free. 8 If the master who chose her for himself is not pleased with her, then he can sell the woman back to her father. If the master broke his promise to marry her, he loses the right to sell her to other people. 9 If the master promised to let the slave woman marry his son, he must treat her like a daughter, not like a slave.
10 “If the master marries another woman, he must not give less food or clothing to the first wife. And he must continue to give her what she has a right to have in marriage. 11 The man must do these three things for her. If he does not, the woman is made free, and it will cost her nothing. She owes no money to the man.


1 Timothy 2:9-12 [Men are never said to be subjugated to the orders given in verses 11 and 12]
9 And I want the women to make themselves attractive in the right way. Their clothes should be sensible and appropriate. They should not draw attention to themselves with fancy hairstyles or gold jewelry or pearls or expensive clothes. 10 But they should make themselves attractive by the good things they do. That is more appropriate for women who say they are devoted to God.
11 A woman should learn while listening quietly and being completely willing to obey. 12 I don’t allow a woman to teach a man or tell him what to do. She must listen quietly,


1 Corinthians 11:3-15 [God makes men the head of women]
3 But I want you to understand this: The head of every man is Christ. And the head of a woman is the man. And the head of Christ is God.


1 Corinthians 14:34-35 [Unlike men, women are subjugated to the following church rules]
34 The women should keep quiet in these church meetings. They are not allowed to speak out but should be under authority, as the Law of Moses says. 35 If there is something they want to know, they should ask their own husbands at home. It is shameful for a woman to speak up like that in the church meeting.


Ephesians 5:22-23 wives are to be subjugated to their husbands]
22 Wives, be willing to serve your husbands the same as the Lord. 23 A husband is the head of his wife, just as Christ is the head of the church. Christ is the Savior of the church, which is his body.


Colossians 3:18-21 [The primary responsibility of family members]
18 Wives, be willing to serve your husbands. This is the right thing to do in following the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives, and be gentle to them.
20 Children, obey your parents in everything. This pleases the Lord.
21 Fathers, don’t upset your children. If you are too hard to please, they might want to stop trying.

.