NOT EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE IS THE TRUTH

[OneWay]

COME DEBATE ME.

[Miles]

COME DEBATE ME.

Please tell one example of what is not true in the Bible and why?

Well, the Bible says that

Bats are birds---Leviticus 11:13-19
Rabbits chew cud---Deuteronomy 14:7
Grasshoppers walk on only four legs---Leviticus 11:21-22
Mustard seeds are the smallest of all seeds---Matthew 13:31-32

which are all false statements. Bats are not birds. Rabbits don't produce cud to chew. Grasshoppers walk on all six legs. There are other seeds smaller than the mustard seed.

.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Miles in post #11

There are other seeds smaller than the mustard seed.

The passage also has mustard seeds growing into trees and birds nesting in their branches. There are no trees in the mustard family.

[TRANSPONDER]

COME DEBATE ME.

I can already see how that will go 'I deny everything! I win!!" And you aren't the only one, chum.With Theist and Bible apologetics,claims are True unless 100% disproven, and even if that is done, Faithbased denial will refuse to accept it.

But let's do one from each Testament.

Genesis is wrong because the Sun was made before the earth, not after the earth let alone all the vegetables.

The nativity - stories are not the truth. If they were true, if Jesus had really been born in Bethlehem of Judea (never mind the apologetic that there were supposedly Bethlehems in Galilee) John would have mentioned it and so would Mark. That's just the start.

As a debate case, what arguments doyou have that the nativity - stories are true?

cue: "They are true until you prove to me 100% that they are false and get me to admit it, which i will never do, no matter what evidence you present ".

Some Christians agree with you.....

Is the earth a flat round disc covered by a dome of water?
Does the sun orbit around the earth?

Science links proving these two would be a good start

Hardly need to, these days.You can fly around the globe and back to where you started in a couple of days. Space probes following Heliocentric orbits get where they are supposed to go. Unless one goes the way of denial, Genesis is disproved. Even Bible believers try to to adapt Genesis to what the science says, or gives it up and accept that it's just a myth. Though claiming that it conveys some faithbased truth. (e.g 'points to God' )

I'd still maintain that the Nativities are debunkable. I think the breaking point was discovery that Varus was acting as effective governor of Syria after his term had ended, as he was putting down revolts in Judea while Archelaus was in Rome getting his kingship of Judea confirmed. This clobbers the'2nd census' apologetic as there is no 'earlier' term for Qurinus, and certainly not in the time of Herod (try as they might to delay Herod's death for a couple of years). What this means is that Luke's nativity has got to be set in 6/7 AD - near a decade (as well as the rule of Archelaus) later than the nativity of Matthew. Quite apart from Luke making it clear that his nativity relates to the revolt of Judas the Galilean in the time of the census - which as I show - has to be AD 6/7

This is a touchstone case of Gospel fallacy. It is rather neat that, the second most debunkable story in the gospels are the resurrection appearances which, in view of Matthew and Luke shown to be contradictory in the nativities unsurprisingly totally contradict here, too. On top of which John contradicts both and Paul's appearances (1 Cor.) don't gell with it either. and on top of that Mark has no such account which is cumulative evidence if we wanted an example, that the resurrections were made up. Like the Nativities.

These two clunkers having been put in place, is it credibly deniable that the death of Judas is dubious? And thus the raising of Lazarus, the messianic declaration in the Nazareth synagogue, the tomb guard, the spear in the side , the penitent thief and Antipas getting involved in Jesus' trial, are all open to question. Once it is accepted , as it should be (1) that the Gospels are not reliable, then doubt falls on the man with palsy, the Eucharist in the synagogue,the sermon on the mount, the healing at a distance, the words on the cross, sermons in John, the parables in Luke, the wrangles with the Jews, the stories of sabbath - breaking, the syrio -phoenecian woman, the Other feeding of 4,000, the Sanhedrin trial and tombs opening, and, dammitt, the transfiguration, Caesar's penny, all foods declared clean, Holy week even being Passover, the Galilean teachings and healings and on the way to Peraea (imported Q material) inclusive.......

...... and most of the rest of the book.


(1) but distressingly persistently is not. I watched a vid on Pilate a few days ago, and while it did a fair job of revising the Gospel picture of a weak appeaser and tried to show that it was Pilate manipulating the Sanhedrin into doing what he wanted, the writers missed so much. They picked up that Luke's 'blood of the Galileans' was likely Barabbas'insurrection, but they miss that nothing is known of a Passover exchange custom. It accepted Antipas being involved. They missed that Roman guards were on duty in the Temple. I won't say it was misleading or even sloppy in research, but common perception of the validity of the gospels needs to move on quite a bit. Dammit, one spokeperson even said flatly that the gospels were written by Jews. That is one that urgently needs debunking.

[Tcg]

[Replying to OneWay in post #1]

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[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #11

There are other seeds smaller than the mustard seed.

The passage also has mustard seeds growing into trees and birds nesting in their branches. There are no trees in the mustard family.

Nice catch. Never noticed it before.

.

[AquinasForGod]

COME DEBATE ME.

Please tell one example of what is not true in the Bible and why?

Well, the Bible says that

Bats are birds---Leviticus 11:13-19
Rabbits chew cud---Deuteronomy 14:7
Grasshoppers walk on only four legs---Leviticus 11:21-22
Mustard seeds are the smallest of all seeds---Matthew 13:31-32

which are all false statements. Bats are not birds. Rabbits don't produce cud to chew. Grasshoppers walk on all six legs. There are other seeds smaller than the mustard seed.

.

Some of this is not correct. It says bats are ofe, which means flyers. It is a generic word for things that fly.
Rabbits chew their cud is not the best translation. the Hebrew is about recovering. It is used of other things like swords. This applies to the rabbit because they eat food, then poop, then eat the food again. They eat their poop.

The one about grasshopper is pretty lame. I mean, if we just use our brains for a moment, it is easy to solve. Did people back then have eyes? Yes. Could they see with their eyes that grasshoppers have 6 legs, yes. So there is a clear reason they talk of four legs and it is because they use 4 legs to walk and cling to things. The back to legs look different and are for jumping. Same with the jumping beetles.

The mustard seeds one is very weak. Jesus is teaching a parable about spiritual things. Jesus is not teaching science here. In Israel, the smallest mustard seed is 1mm. Jesus was speaking to their common daily lives. In their daily lives, the smallest seed, they all would relate to was the mustard seed.

[Miles]

COME DEBATE ME.

Please tell one example of what is not true in the Bible and why?

Well, the Bible says that

Bats are birds---Leviticus 11:13-19
Rabbits chew cud---Deuteronomy 14:7
Grasshoppers walk on only four legs---Leviticus 11:21-22
Mustard seeds are the smallest of all seeds---Matthew 13:31-32

which are all false statements. Bats are not birds. Rabbits don't produce cud to chew. Grasshoppers walk on all six legs. There are other seeds smaller than the mustard seed.

.

Some of this is not correct. It says bats are ofe, which means flyers. It is a generic word for things that fly.

So what? In every one of the 54 Bibles I checked Leviticus 11:19 uses the word "bat."

Leviticus 11:13-19
13 “And these you shall detest among the birds; they shall not be eaten; they are detestable: the eagle, the bearded vulture, the black vulture, 14 the kite, the falcon of any kind, 15 every raven of any kind, 16 the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk of any kind, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the short-eared owl, 18 the barn owl, the tawny owl, the carrion vulture, 19 the stork, the heron of any kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.

including the four listed Catholic Bibles

NCB
the stork, every kind of heron, the hoopoe, and the bat.

NRSVACE
the stork, the heron of any kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.

NRSVCE
the stork, the heron of any kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.

RSVCE
the stork, the heron according to its kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.

Rabbits chew their cud is not the best translation.

In as much as rabbits and hares don't even produce cud to chew, it's a terrible statement, but an accurate translation according to Strong's Concordance listing for H1625.

גֵּרָה (gērâ)
Biblical usage 1. cud.
gêrâh, gay-raw'; from H1641; the cud (as scraping the throat):—cud.

the Hebrew is about recovering. It is used of other things like swords. This applies to the rabbit because they eat food, then poop, then eat the food again. They eat their poop.

So what? Poop isn't cud by a long shot. Ergo, it's still erroneous to say rabbits and hares chew the cud.

Deuteronomy 14:7
Nevertheless these you shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of those who have the hoof split: the camel, the hare, and the rabbit. Because they chew the cud but don’t part the hoof, they are unclean to you.

Thing is, the Hebrews got it wrong, and the scholars and translators who followed didn't have the courage to correct it.

The one about grasshopper is pretty lame. I mean, if we just use our brains for a moment, it is easy to solve. Did people back then have eyes? Yes. Could they see with their eyes that grasshoppers have 6 legs, yes. So there is a clear reason they talk of four legs and it is because they use 4 legs to walk and cling to things. The back to legs look different and are for jumping. Same with the jumping beetles.

But the fact remains that Leviticus 11:20-22 says, in part, "But of the various winged insects that walk on all fours you may eat . . .various kinds of locusts, the various kinds of bald locusts, the various kinds of crickets, and the various kinds of grasshoppers." Clearly making the point that these insects are edible only because they walk on only four legs, whereas the truth is that grasshoppers, locusts and crickets actually walk on all six legs. In fact, in answer to this very bit of Biblical misinformation YouTube has has posted several videos grasshoppers doing just that; walking on all six legs.


........................

The mustard seeds one is very weak. Jesus is teaching a parable about spiritual things. Jesus is not teaching science here. In Israel, the smallest mustard seed is 1mm. Jesus was speaking to their common daily lives. In their daily lives, the smallest seed, they all would relate to was the mustard seed.

So what? No matter what kind of excuses you make up for Jesus the fact remains that what Jesus said was out and out wrong.

Matthew 13:31-32
31 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. 32 It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”

Thing is, either Jesus was mistaken, didn't care that he was bluffing his disciples, or lied, but no matter the reason, Jesus blew it. He was 100% wrong to say a grain of mustard seed . . . . 32 It is the smallest of all seeds. Which has misled millions upon millions of his followers into repeating this falsehood.


And all of these mistakes made in light of the supposed fact that all scripture is from god.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. "

and is indubitably true

Proverbs 30:5-6
"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. "

.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #16

Rabbits chew their cud is not the best translation. the Hebrew is about recovering. It is used of other things like swords. This applies to the rabbit because they eat food, then poop, then eat the food again. They eat their poop.

Then why is the same phrase----"awlaw (עָלָה) gera (גֵּרָה)" used for clean animals and for unclean ones, while dung----"peresh" (פֶּרֶשׁ) is not used?

"Recovering" is only one translation of "עָלָה". It also means "ascend" or "bring (up)".

[1213]

Bats are birds---Leviticus 11:13-19
Rabbits chew cud---Deuteronomy 14:7
Grasshoppers walk on only four legs---Leviticus 11:21-22
Mustard seeds are the smallest of all seeds---Matthew 13:31-32

Apparently, they had a different definition for birds than we now have. If modern people make a new definition for a word, it doesn't make Bible wrong. Otherwise, everything could be made wrong just by giving new definitions for old words.

It can be said Rabbits chew cud, because:
Rabbits definitely do not “chew the cud,” in the modern, scientific sense of that English phrase. That’s irrelevant, however, since the Bible was not written in modern English. What matters is what the translated phrase meant in Hebrew at the time it was written. What rabbits and hares do is called “refection” or “coprophagy,” and it involves re-digesting food after it passes out of the body (in other words, rabbits eat their own feces). Rabbits are also known to constantly move their mouths, in a motion that looks extremely similar to the chewing motion of cows and other ruminants. What’s described in Leviticus 11:6 is meant for simple identification, not detailed scientific analysis.
https://www.gotquestions.org/rabbits-chew-cud.html

Yes, only four legs, another two are arms.

It seems Jesus is speaking of herb plant seeds that they had, not of all possible seeds in the world:
He set another parable before them, saying, “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field; which indeed is smaller than all seeds. But when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in its branches.”
Matt. 13:31-32

[1213]

The two different contradicting accounts of the thief on the cross

Sorry, I don't see contradiction in them.