JESUS IS NOT AN ANGEL

[OneWay]

JESUS IS NOT AN ANGEL.

COME DEBATE ME

[MissKate13]

[Replying to OneWay in post #1]

You are absolutely correct! Jesus was not created, nor was He an angel. The author of Hebrews makes that perfectly clear.

[Revelations won]

Dear Misskate,

Thank you for your response to the OP, but could you please provide scriptural evidence to support all of your claims?

Best regards,
RW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to OneWay in post #1]

You are absolutely correct! Jesus was not created, nor was He an angel. The author of Hebrews makes that perfectly clear.

The author of Hebrews did not write it as is translated by many translators, including the King James committee. Hebrews i:8 is one of those verses where the characteristics of Greek grammar and the tendencies of Greek style give the translator a big headache. In this verse we have a sentence without verbs. In Greek, the verb "is" is often omitted as unnecessary. Since it is implied, it does not need to be said explicitly. When we translate from Greek into English, however, we supply the implied verb, because English is the kind of language where the verb must be there to help put the sentence together. The problem with Heb.1:8 is that we are not sure where the verb "is" belongs in the sentence, and where it belongs makes a big difference in the meaning of the verse.

More later....

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #4]
To continue about why Hebrews 1:8 does not show that Jesus is God.....

Take a look at the passage in an interlinear translation: Literally, "the throne of you the god until the age of the age." Putting the sentence together: "The throne of you" means "your throne." "The god" is the way the Bible indicates "God"; the definite article makes it specifically the one God. "Until the age of the age" is the typical biblical way to say "forever and ever." Now the question is, where does the verb "is" go in this sentence to hold it all together in a coherent statement?

In English we know exactly where to place a verb: it goes between the subject and the object of the verb...The question in Hebrews 1:8 is, what is the subject? We have two nouns---"throne" and "God." The verb "is" might go between these two nouns, as it does in dozens of cases of saying "x" is "y" in the New Testament. If this is so, then the sentence reads: "Your throne is God, forever and ever." (The NRSV and TEV translators recognize this as a possible translation of this verse, as well as the NWT, and so include it in a footnote in their respective translations.)

Many versions have chosen the RARER, LESS PROBABLE way to translate ho theos. We have ended up with a shoddy rendering in the King James and other versions. On the basis of linguistics, ho theos is more likely to mean "God," (rather than "O God") as it does hundreds of times throughout the New Testament. Moreover, there is no other way to say "God is your throne" than the way Hebrews 1:8 reads.

On the basis of literary context, we can say that Jesus, who is the subject being discussed in Hebrews 1:8, is not called "God" anywhere else in the letter to the Hebrews. In fact, in the very next verse it says that Jesus has a God. "That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions."

It is clear that Hebrews 1:8 and the whole of the letter to the Hebrews, is not saying that Jesus is God, and actually exalts Jesus' God throughout. God spoke to us by means of a Son. God and his Son are two individual beings.

[onewithhim]

To continue in this line of thinking.....

The original Psalm that is being quoted in Hebrews 1:8 is PSALM 45, a hymn in praise of the king of Israel. God is addressed nowhere in this Psalm. It is the life of the king being described---a very human king. So what does it have to do with Jesus, and why is it quoted as if it is about Jesus? Simply, Jesus is the Messiah, and the Messiah is the rightful King of Israel. What is said about the king of Israel (e.g., David) can be said equally of the Messiah, and in fact, the psalm is about what God has done for the person spoken to (including the Messiah).

Within the Jewish tradition, Psalm 45 has never been taken to call the king "God." The modern translation published by the Jewish Bible Society reads:
"YOUR DIVINE THRONE IS EVERLASTING." The Greek translation of the psalm made before the beginning of Christianity, which reads exactly as the author of Hebrews has quoted it, certainly followed this traditional Jewish understanding of the verse, and its translators thought that by using ho theos they were saying "God is your throne," not "Your throne, O God."

Three giants of modern New Testament scholarship---Westcott, Moffatt, and Goodspeed---came to the same conclusion independently.






See "An Uncertain Throne," pp. 97-101, Truth in Translation, 2003, by Jason David BeDuhn.

[JumpingJackFlash]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #4]
God and his Son are two individual beings.

Please tell me the definition of " beings " that you are defining as God and Jesus?
God is a Spirit, is a being a spirit?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #4]
God and his Son are two individual beings.

Please tell me the definition of " beings " that you are defining as God and Jesus?
God is a Spirit, is a being a spirit?

Yes, a spirit person is a being.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to Revelations won in post #3]

Jesus is so much better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4)

Jesus has a more excellent name than the angels (Hebrews 1:4)

No angel was ever called God’s Son (Hebrews 1:5)

Worship is reserved for God alone, yet God said, “Let all the angels worship Jesus.” (Hebrews 1:6)

God never said to an angel, “Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool. (Hebrews 1:13)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Revelations won in post #3]

Jesus is so much better than the angels (Hebrews 1:4)

Jesus has a more excellent name than the angels (Hebrews 1:4)

No angel was ever called God’s Son (Hebrews 1:5)

Worship is reserved for God alone, yet God said, “Let all the angels worship Jesus.” (Hebrews 1:6)

God never said to an angel, “Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool. (Hebrews 1:13)

Jesus is Jehovah's "first begotten" (Hebrews 1:6)---the first thing created and by God alone. That is what "begotten" means, brought into existence. Jesus is not just the archangel but he is the first-born Son of God. He is higher than all the angels after him. Jehovah said to "do obeisance" to Jesus and that didn't mean worshiping him the same way we worship the Father. It just means to show respect, as the kings of the world get respected by men, or, men are shown to do obeisance to them. Are men in high places equal to God? So, obeisance to the true God is one thing and obeisance to Jesus is another. There are levels of obeisance. We worship only Jehovah as the true God. (John 17:3) We respect Jesus and everything about him.