The question for debate: Can you prove water exists?
You might say, we cannot prove anything absolutely. I agree. Then you might say, we can show evidence for things to justify our beliefs. Right, we can show evidence that water is a composite of hydrogen and oxygen.
But do you have evidence water exists outside our minds? What is that evidence?
Showing what water seems to be made of is not evidence it exists outside our minds. You might say, why not stick your head underwater and see if you drown? How would that be evidence that water exists outside our minds?
It could be that we are all living in some very long shared dream or something like the Matrix. In that case, we would all mentally see me drown. I would experience drowning. I have drowned in a dream. The fact I drowned sure doesn't show that the dream water existed outside my mind.
This question of course extends to everything. Do we have evidence that trees exist outside our minds?
If we cannot even offer evidence that water exists beyond our minds, something we probably interact with daily, why would we expect to demonstrate God exists outside our minds?
Now if we cannot show evidence that water exists outside our minds, does that mean it doesn't exist outside our minds? If we cannot give evidence that water exists outside our minds does that mean it is unreasonable to believe that water exists outside our minds? i.e. is it unreasonable to believe water exists as a physical object even if we cannot give evidence it is indeed a physical object that exists outside our minds?
Can you prove water exists?
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Re: Can you prove water exists?
Post #41I fail to see the connection between your rejecting a fallacy, and it being one.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:57 pmI don't think it's a true fallacy.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:41 amI only learned about argumentum ad hominem after I joined this site.
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=37986
Or, for example...
"You're a so-and-so, and so you can't possibly be right."
In reality you're cool by me, please don't take my ad hom personally
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Re: Can you prove water exists?
Post #42And I fail to see the connection between someone else claiming it is a fallacy and it being one.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:46 pm I fail to see the connection between your rejecting a fallacy, and it being one.
It depends on what specific thing a so-and-so is, and if it's relevant to the argument. If someone weighs 700lbs, and they say they've discovered the perfect diet that can make anyone lose weight, they need not be entertained. Until they do lose weight on the diet, that is. And let's say he does lose weight, but it comes out that he lost weight because he had bariatric surgery. Then he's really lost all credibility with his miracle diet.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:46 pmOr, for example...
"You're a so-and-so, and so you can't possibly be right."
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Re: Can you prove water exists?
Post #43Fair enough, but I was under the impression the link to which you referred would have you supporting the idea that an ad hom is not a fallacy.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 1:27 pmAnd I fail to see the connection between someone else claiming it is a fallacy and it being one.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:46 pm I fail to see the connection between your rejecting a fallacy, and it being one.
But then...
Okay. I'll concede the point where it has a direct connection to a claimant and their claims. I don't concede where the ad hom has no direct connection.It depends on what specific thing a so-and-so is, and if it's relevant to the argument. If someone weighs 700lbs, and they say they've discovered the perfect diet that can make anyone lose weight, they need not be entertained. Until they do lose weight on the diet, that is. And let's say he does lose weight, but it comes out that he lost weight because he had bariatric surgery. Then he's really lost all credibility with his miracle diet.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Can you prove water exists?
Post #44It does. One of the sad things I have to admit is that if someone attacks intellect or capability, that's valid, and it's the most common ad hom.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 3:52 pm Fair enough, but I was under the impression the link to which you referred would have you supporting the idea that an ad hom is not a fallacy.
If someone is really too limited to understand an argument, and someone else tells them that, it's not a fallacy; it's just true. I had to concede that this was the case when someone said that the Koran was perfect, but that perfection would be lost in translation because only the language it was written in was perfect.
The truth is that if my language is fundamentally flawed, I'm going to see flaws in things that are not flawed, and those are flaws in my own understanding.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2020 2:57 pmCan you refute this asserion?
...I admit that I cannot refute it.happy forever wrote:Arabic is the only complete straight language, any other language is 'Agam which means "not clear or accurate".
Quran is the words of Allah and His words are miraculous, that's why it is impossible for humans to translate it.
I can't see a way to defeat this claim.
The best I can hope for is a translation that explains every word used in a way that an English-speaker would understand.
However, if my language itself is that faulty I cannot reasonably ask that I be able to understand anything.
Other than the attack on intelligence, I agree with you. But if there's no connection then there's already a fallacy for that, and it's a non sequitur.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:46 pmOkay. I'll concede the point where it has a direct connection to a claimant and their claims. I don't concede where the ad hom has no direct connection.
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Re: Can you prove water exists?
Post #45Here is what ChatGPT says:
The question you raise is an age-old philosophical problem of how we know what exists beyond our minds. The solipsistic view that nothing can be known or proven to exist outside of our own minds is a radical form of skepticism that can be difficult to refute.
However, while we cannot prove the existence of water or any physical object with absolute certainty, we can offer evidence for its existence based on our sensory experiences and empirical observations. We can observe the effects of water, such as its ability to extinguish fire, cause rust, or dissolve salt. We can also observe the physical properties of water, such as its temperature, density, and fluidity. These observations provide us with a reasonable basis to conclude that water exists as a physical object beyond our minds.
Furthermore, the fact that others can also observe and interact with water in a similar way as us provides additional evidence for its existence outside of our minds. The shared experiences and observations of physical objects, like water and trees, suggest that they exist independently of our individual perceptions.
While we may never be able to prove with absolute certainty the existence of anything beyond our minds, it is reasonable to believe in the existence of physical objects based on the evidence of our sensory experiences and empirical observations.
The question you raise is an age-old philosophical problem of how we know what exists beyond our minds. The solipsistic view that nothing can be known or proven to exist outside of our own minds is a radical form of skepticism that can be difficult to refute.
However, while we cannot prove the existence of water or any physical object with absolute certainty, we can offer evidence for its existence based on our sensory experiences and empirical observations. We can observe the effects of water, such as its ability to extinguish fire, cause rust, or dissolve salt. We can also observe the physical properties of water, such as its temperature, density, and fluidity. These observations provide us with a reasonable basis to conclude that water exists as a physical object beyond our minds.
Furthermore, the fact that others can also observe and interact with water in a similar way as us provides additional evidence for its existence outside of our minds. The shared experiences and observations of physical objects, like water and trees, suggest that they exist independently of our individual perceptions.
While we may never be able to prove with absolute certainty the existence of anything beyond our minds, it is reasonable to believe in the existence of physical objects based on the evidence of our sensory experiences and empirical observations.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
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Re: Can you prove water exists?
Post #46[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #45]
The color blue can be observed by others and everyone can agree that the thing being observed is the color "blue" but what we cannot know is that the other mind actually sees the same color.
It is the same with whatever objects we all share an experience of and we think of water as "wet" and by that, we each know that water exists, although the water you see might not look like the water I see, this doesn't appear to interfere with how we both use water together, for similar purposes.
This tell me at least that the brain/sensory system of the human form allows for us to see things in a similar manner, and that we can assume we all see the same thing, if indeed or description of that things is agreed upon by others who observing that said thing.
At the same time, none of our bodies are exactly able to do everything all other bodies can do. Brains are different, and some allow for the ability of the consciousness involved with said brain, to do mathematics with ease, or created works of art, or understand fatherhood et al.
Nothing really exists outside our minds, because it is minds which acknowledge existence and so anything which is unknown to us might exist but doesn't exist for us if it is not acknowledged as existing by the mind experiencing it existing.
[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #1]
Put another way, your question can be asked of GOD. "How do you get evidence that anything exists beyond your mind? How do you KNOW that anything really exists outside of your mind?"
The color blue can be observed by others and everyone can agree that the thing being observed is the color "blue" but what we cannot know is that the other mind actually sees the same color.
It is the same with whatever objects we all share an experience of and we think of water as "wet" and by that, we each know that water exists, although the water you see might not look like the water I see, this doesn't appear to interfere with how we both use water together, for similar purposes.
This tell me at least that the brain/sensory system of the human form allows for us to see things in a similar manner, and that we can assume we all see the same thing, if indeed or description of that things is agreed upon by others who observing that said thing.
At the same time, none of our bodies are exactly able to do everything all other bodies can do. Brains are different, and some allow for the ability of the consciousness involved with said brain, to do mathematics with ease, or created works of art, or understand fatherhood et al.
Nothing really exists outside our minds, because it is minds which acknowledge existence and so anything which is unknown to us might exist but doesn't exist for us if it is not acknowledged as existing by the mind experiencing it existing.
[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #1]
God cannot exist anywhere but inside our minds. The very idea of GOD is that it is a MIND.If we cannot even offer evidence that water exists beyond our minds, something we probably interact with daily, why would we expect to demonstrate God exists outside our minds?
Put another way, your question can be asked of GOD. "How do you get evidence that anything exists beyond your mind? How do you KNOW that anything really exists outside of your mind?"
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Re: Can you prove water exists?
Post #47Brilliant in its simplicity.William wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:32 pm [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #45]
The color blue can be observed by others and everyone can agree that the thing being observed is the color "blue" but what we cannot know is that the other mind actually sees the same color.
It is the same with whatever objects we all share an experience of and we think of water as "wet" and by that, we each know that water exists, although the water you see might not look like the water I see, this doesn't appear to interfere with how we both use water together, for similar purposes.
This tell me at least that the brain/sensory system of the human form allows for us to see things in a similar manner, and that we can assume we all see the same thing, if indeed or description of that things is agreed upon by others who observing that said thing.
At the same time, none of our bodies are exactly able to do everything all other bodies can do. Brains are different, and some allow for the ability of the consciousness involved with said brain, to do mathematics with ease, or created works of art, or understand fatherhood et al.
Nothing really exists outside our minds, because it is minds which acknowledge existence and so anything which is unknown to us might exist but doesn't exist for us if it is not acknowledged as existing by the mind experiencing it existing.
[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #1]
God cannot exist anywhere but inside our minds. The very idea of GOD is that it is a MIND.If we cannot even offer evidence that water exists beyond our minds, something we probably interact with daily, why would we expect to demonstrate God exists outside our minds?
Put another way, your question can be asked of GOD. "How do you get evidence that anything exists beyond your mind? How do you KNOW that anything really exists outside of your mind?"
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
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Re: Can you prove water exists?
Post #48As a mental exercise to develop precise language, and have a fun time wrestling with philosophical concepts, this might entertain us for a few moments, but I'd argue there are better things to mull over.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:46 pm The question for debate: Can you prove water exists?
You might say, we cannot prove anything absolutely. I agree. Then you might say, we can show evidence for things to justify our beliefs. Right, we can show evidence that water is a composite of hydrogen and oxygen.
But do you have evidence water exists outside our minds? What is that evidence?
One thing to ponder, while you are wondering if you are a brain in a vat or not, is - if we are brains in vats, or if all things are constructs of our minds, why have so many people chosen to live incredibly boring lives with no magical or supernatural abilities?
When choking on water than went down the wrong pipe, are you wondering - why have I chosen to imagine this feeling?
The feeling of coughing, the rasp in your throat, etc. Sure, we could convince ourselves that these are mental constructs, but why? What reason do we have to think that what appears real isn't?Showing what water seems to be made of is not evidence it exists outside our minds. You might say, why not stick your head underwater and see if you drown? How would that be evidence that water exists outside our minds?
It could be that we are all living in some very long shared dream or something like the Matrix. In that case, we would all mentally see me drown. I would experience drowning. I have drowned in a dream. The fact I drowned sure doesn't show that the dream water existed outside my mind.
Wouldn't the real question be: is my mind real, or is my mind (what I experience as "me") simply my senses experiencing my body as it senses and does things? Why wouldn't we accept - first - that the physical world exists, and that maybe our mental states are more like we are a passenger in a car. When it turns left, we think "I wanted to turn left - because that's why I turned left."
Kind of like watching a movie: our senses are simply sensing themselves and that's what we feel is "consciousness", or our "self".
Our conciousness = senses sensing their sensations.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20445335
Someone might say, "But I appear to have free will!"
Right, but if we are asking if water exists, why not wonder if FW exists? It's possible that our minds have no control over our bodies, whatsever. Our bodies know how and where to go to get food, and - perhaps - our minds simply record the events.
Yes, even when we are trying to explain things to the police for why we stole a piece of bread - but, remember - the police officer is also just doing what his body does. There is no ability for anyone to change their fate - that their body wasn't going to change at some point anyhow.
Our "decision" to go to college to get a better job was decided by our genetics and environment - not a decision we made. We decide nothing.
So, while these explorations are entertaining - Idealism and Determinism, et al. - it appears the way things work is that we ought to "act as if" water is real and we have some amount of FW.This question of course extends to everything. Do we have evidence that trees exist outside our minds?
If we cannot even offer evidence that water exists beyond our minds, something we probably interact with daily, why would we expect to demonstrate God exists outside our minds?
Now if we cannot show evidence that water exists outside our minds, does that mean it doesn't exist outside our minds? If we cannot give evidence that water exists outside our minds does that mean it is unreasonable to believe that water exists outside our minds? i.e. is it unreasonable to believe water exists as a physical object even if we cannot give evidence it is indeed a physical object that exists outside our minds?
All great stuff.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm