Yes or No?

Pointless Posts, Raves n Rants, Obscure Opinions

Moderator: Moderators

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 484 times

Yes or No?

Post #1

Post by Athetotheist »

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow. (Matthew 28:2-3)

Did Mary Magdalene see this happen or did she not?

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 484 times

Re: Yes or No?

Post #11

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #10
I actually think this is fundamental for all knowledge in all we do. No one knows everything, no one knows exactly what happened ever. Even in observable science, we have no clue how quantum particles can occupy two places at once. Or one observer will always see something different then another observer, relativity proves it. If we break truth down to a literal concept, it brakes down at the seems. No one knows exactly what happened in history, or in the present, it all breaks down. Everyone sees something from a different preservative, rationalizes it in their own mind, and every story ever is perceived with different details, and fundamentally totally different truths.
So you're conceding that the Christian narrative has no practical advantage over the others?

User avatar
Shem Yoshi
Sage
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:45 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Yes or No?

Post #12

Post by Shem Yoshi »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:03 pm [Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #10
I actually think this is fundamental for all knowledge in all we do. No one knows everything, no one knows exactly what happened ever. Even in observable science, we have no clue how quantum particles can occupy two places at once. Or one observer will always see something different then another observer, relativity proves it. If we break truth down to a literal concept, it brakes down at the seems. No one knows exactly what happened in history, or in the present, it all breaks down. Everyone sees something from a different preservative, rationalizes it in their own mind, and every story ever is perceived with different details, and fundamentally totally different truths.
So you're conceding that the Christian narrative has no practical advantage over the others?
Well i was thinking about it. If everything, all truth, breaks down and no one knows the truth, then all things are equal right? But I think there is a difference to something that is leading to truth, instead of misleading truth.

Surely anyone can lie, and mislead you from the truth. As anyone can tell a truthful story of what they perceive to be true. So in that case a lie is certainly not the truth, where a truthful story is leading to truth, even if we dont understand it.
“Them that die'll be the lucky ones.”

User avatar
Shem Yoshi
Sage
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:45 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Yes or No?

Post #13

Post by Shem Yoshi »

and actually this concept im talking about, its Cartesian skepticism, that no truth at all can be known. Back in the 1600's i think Rene Desecrese pondered about it.

It is actually talked about in the scripture. "there is no one who understands" Paul wrote in Romans 3:11

And certainly everything can be scrutinized, and no one knows exactly anything literally. Truth itself cant be fully known. "there is no one who seeks God."~Paul wrote (Romans 3:11)

I am coming to realize it is an impossibility for humanity.

However it is possible for God to know everything. By definition God does do that, and God can create things that are completely true, like the laws of nature, science, or even His Word. The problem is, we will never understand it. Not the Laws of Nature, not science, and not his Word. It is impossible, for all people know something differently. The laws of science prove that everyone's experience is fundamentally different and contradicting (for lack of a better word) to everyone else's experience.
“Them that die'll be the lucky ones.”

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 484 times

Re: Yes or No?

Post #14

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #13
It is actually talked about in the scripture. "there is no one who understands" Paul wrote in Romans 3:11
Then how would you understand the Bhagavad Gita or the Havamal?
The problem is, we will never understand it. Not the Laws of Nature, not science, and not his Word. It is impossible, for everyone knows something differently
Then how do you know that the Bible is God's word?
The laws of science prove that everyone's experience is fundamentally different and contradicting (for lack of a better word) to everyone else's experience.
Perceptions may be different, but either Mary Magdalene saw Matthew's angel or she didn't----and that seems to depend on which account you read.

User avatar
Shem Yoshi
Sage
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:45 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Yes or No?

Post #15

Post by Shem Yoshi »

like if you have two clocks that count at the same pace, and one of them you fly around the world in a fast jet, and the other one you have on land. They experience time at different speeds, people have actually done this experiment. And when they come back together they dont harmonize with the same time, they have different times. It is the concept of relativity.

Now i could be wrong, but fundamentally their own experiences contradict (for lack of a better word) each other.

And who is to say that everyone isnt moving differently all the time? We all observe things from our point of view, even the particles of light reach us at different times. And even on top of all that, if we perceive things perfectly, which we dont even perceive thing perfectly our own mental faculties fail us all the time in human error, but even if we perceive things perfectly they will be fundamentally different then what another person perceives
“Them that die'll be the lucky ones.”

User avatar
Shem Yoshi
Sage
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:45 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Yes or No?

Post #16

Post by Shem Yoshi »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:17 pm [Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #13
It is actually talked about in the scripture. "there is no one who understands" Paul wrote in Romans 3:11
Then how would you understand the Bhagavad Gita or the Havamal?
The problem is, we will never understand it. Not the Laws of Nature, not science, and not his Word. It is impossible, for everyone knows something differently
Then how do you know that the Bible is God's word?
The laws of science prove that everyone's experience is fundamentally different and contradicting (for lack of a better word) to everyone else's experience.
Perceptions may be different, but either Mary Magdalene saw Matthew's angel or she didn't----and that seems to depend on which account you read.
The funny thing is, you are asking me, a man who just conceded that nothing can be known. No one will ever know.
“Them that die'll be the lucky ones.”

User avatar
Shem Yoshi
Sage
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:45 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Yes or No?

Post #17

Post by Shem Yoshi »

I suppose I simply have to have faith in something greater then me, and that is all i can do.

In fact if i dont have faith in God, someone who knows everything, and its proven I cant know truth, i would be a hopeless man. Left to my own faculties that fail all the time.
“Them that die'll be the lucky ones.”

User avatar
Shem Yoshi
Sage
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:45 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Yes or No?

Post #18

Post by Shem Yoshi »

further more, i would like to continue to develop the thought.

So we cant know truth, however we live our lives and experience things. The scriptures say that the prophets had no knowledge of their own prophecy but were carried along in the spirit to speak. They spoke things that are true to the point of God, not even fully understanding it, but carried in spirit.

So a person can be carried in the truth, and speak truth, but it is not by their own doing or knowing.

And who knows, maybe the writers of the Gospels, being carried in the spirit, understood the story of God and wrote it, all independently doing so. And Matt knew the story of the Rock being rolled away, while Mark knew the story of the Woman finding it there. Both being carried in spirit to write such things.

"For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:21)

edit:
and it is certainly quite possible the Mary experienced both, in her own faculties she could have perceived both happening in some sort of daze.
“Them that die'll be the lucky ones.”

Athetotheist
Prodigy
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 484 times

Re: Yes or No?

Post #19

Post by Athetotheist »

Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:17 pm like if you have two clocks that count at the same pace, and one of them you fly around the world in a fast jet, and the other one you have on land. They experience time at different speeds, people have actually done this experiment. And when they come back together they dont harmonize with the same time, they have different times. It is the concept of relativity.

Now i could be wrong, but fundamentally their own experiences contradict (for lack of a better word) each other.

And who is to say that everyone isnt moving differently all the time? We all observe things from our point of view, even the particles of light reach us at different times. And even on top of all that, if we perceive things perfectly, which we dont even perceive thing perfectly our own mental faculties fail us all the time in human error, but even if we perceive things perfectly they will be fundamentally different then what another person perceives
A nice dissertation on relativity, but this isn't about relativity. It's about different authors having the same person [MM] at the same time [when she arrived at the tomb] having mutually exclusive experiences [seeing a dazzling angel according to Matthew and seeing no angel according to John]. It's grasping at straws to try to make Einsteinian relativity account for that.
I suppose I simply have to have faith in something greater then me, and that is all i can do.

In fact if i dont have faith in God, someone who knows everything, and its proven I cant know truth, i would be a hopeless man. Left to my own faculties that fail all the time.
Having faith in something greater than ourselves doesn't require a complete surrender of all our mental faculties.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
---Galileo

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
---Thomas Jefferson
And who knows, maybe the writers of the Gospels, being carried in the spirit, understood the story of God and wrote it, all independently doing so. And Matt knew the story of the Rock being rolled away, while Mark knew the story of the Woman finding it there. Both being carried in spirit to write such things.
Again, it's a double-standard to give this benefit of the doubt to Christian writers and not give the same to the mystics of other faiths (Shiva dancing the universe into and out of existence is as fine a mystical interpretation of quantum mechanics as can be found).
and it is certainly quite possible the Mary experienced both, in her own faculties she could have perceived both happening in some sort of daze.
Then at least one gospel writer should have mentioned that, furnishing you with scripture for reproof [2 Timothy 3:16-17].

User avatar
Shem Yoshi
Sage
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:45 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Yes or No?

Post #20

Post by Shem Yoshi »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 7:18 am
Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:17 pm like if you have two clocks that count at the same pace, and one of them you fly around the world in a fast jet, and the other one you have on land. They experience time at different speeds, people have actually done this experiment. And when they come back together they dont harmonize with the same time, they have different times. It is the concept of relativity.

Now i could be wrong, but fundamentally their own experiences contradict (for lack of a better word) each other.

And who is to say that everyone isnt moving differently all the time? We all observe things from our point of view, even the particles of light reach us at different times. And even on top of all that, if we perceive things perfectly, which we dont even perceive thing perfectly our own mental faculties fail us all the time in human error, but even if we perceive things perfectly they will be fundamentally different then what another person perceives
A nice dissertation on relativity, but this isn't about relativity. It's about different authors having the same person [MM] at the same time [when she arrived at the tomb] having mutually exclusive experiences [seeing a dazzling angel according to Matthew and seeing no angel according to John]. It's grasping at straws to try to make Einsteinian relativity account for that.
I suppose I simply have to have faith in something greater then me, and that is all i can do.

In fact if i dont have faith in God, someone who knows everything, and its proven I cant know truth, i would be a hopeless man. Left to my own faculties that fail all the time.
Having faith in something greater than ourselves doesn't require a complete surrender of all our mental faculties.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
---Galileo

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
---Thomas Jefferson
I dont think you understand why I dont believe in other religions. Perhaps from your point of view YOU dont believe in all religoins because you consider them all literally impossible, but I dont believe in other religions because I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe Jesus Christ is the only way.

I actually think it is fully possible that the other religions, including Islam, LDS's, Thelima, Hindu, came about by prophets... But there can be false prophets...
Athetotheist wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 7:18 am
And who knows, maybe the writers of the Gospels, being carried in the spirit, understood the story of God and wrote it, all independently doing so. And Matt knew the story of the Rock being rolled away, while Mark knew the story of the Woman finding it there. Both being carried in spirit to write such things.
Again, it's a double-standard to give this benefit of the doubt to Christian writers and not give the same to the mystics of other faiths (Shiva dancing the universe into and out of existence is as fine a mystical interpretation of quantum mechanics as can be found).
and it is certainly quite possible the Mary experienced both, in her own faculties she could have perceived both happening in some sort of daze.
Then at least one gospel writer should have mentioned that, furnishing you with scripture for reproof [2 Timothy 3:16-17].
Or maybe they are some sort of alternate reality? :shock:
“Them that die'll be the lucky ones.”

Post Reply