Does the USA need to STOP supporting ISRAEL NOW-?

[thomasdixon]

The USA has looked the other way while Israelis murder Palestinian children

The USA has looked the other way while Israelis destroy Palestinian fishing boats.

The USA has looked the other way while Israelis murder American citizens.

The USA has looked the other way while Israelis destroy Palestinian villages and then build illegally on top of the rubble.

28 Dec 2022
Benjamin Netanyahu’s incoming hardline government put West Bank settlement expansion at the top of its list of priorities on Wednesday, vowing to legalise dozens of illegally built outposts and annex the occupied territory as part of its coalition deal with its ultranational allies.
Netanyahu government makes West Bank settlement expansion its priority

We, as Americans, including American Jews must band together and demand that we, citizens of America STOP giving Israel money.
We must make our voices heard in Congress and directly to Biden.

Israel should be designated a terrorist state-?

opinions welcome yes/no/why

[Gracchus]

[Replying to thomasdixon in post #1]

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." --- Friedrich Nietzsche

Perhaps Israel has been fighting monsters for too long. Continual war, no matter how "justified", corrupts nations.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to thomasdixon in post #1]

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." --- Friedrich Nietzsche

Perhaps Israel has been fighting monsters for too long. Continual war, no matter how "justified", corrupts nations.

Yes and no. The problem is, they simply declared Israel as a nation, and displaced the Palestinians. This is a perfect example of how religion corrupts. Obviously, we all have sympathy for the Jewish people in how they've been treated - and that's where the Nietzsche quote is apt: the Zionists, perhaps in response to the constant attacks on them, turned and attacked the Palestinians.
Why Christians so proudly and adamantly support Israel is odd to me - except out of ignorance over supporting the Jewish religion over the Islamic one.

All that said, there are geopolitical interests at play that will always trump the concerns of the average Israeli or Palestinian - as they are pawns in the larger game.

[historia]

The problem is, they simply declared Israel as a nation, and displaced the Palestinians. This is a perfect example of how religion corrupts.

I disagree completely. Herzl and the early Zionists were almost entirely secular.

Why Christians so proudly and adamantly support Israel is odd to me

I suspect you had American Evangelical Christians in mind when you wrote this. I don't think that kind of unqualified, religiously-inspired support for Israel is shared by Christians more broadly.

[Purple Knight]

I suspect you had American Evangelical Christians in mind when you wrote this. I don't think that kind of unqualified, religiously-inspired support for Israel is shared by Christians more broadly.

I think there's a broad sort of "must-be" where everyone thinks everyone else must be supporting Israel, or at least, thinks that some large swaths of Americans must be, because they continue to get huge support.

The reality is probably that no or very few Americans support what Israel is doing, and the only large support they have is in Washington because they lobby like crazy for it.

[boatsnguitars]

I disagree completely. Herzl and the early Zionists were almost entirely secular.

But this makes my point. While Herzl and many early Zionists were predominantly secular, it is also true that the Zionist movement included religious and diverse ideological currents as it developed and expanded.
Eventually, and today, the religious aspect is a huge factor: Religion has corrupted the process.
Additionally, the whole reason a group of people wanted to establish a new State germinated from religious beliefs.
The only other secular examples I can think of a race/culture of people wanting their own State are a few cults, and White racists thinking that Black and Brown people should be given a country to be shipped to.
One must admit that the idea to grab a piece of land on the Med Sea, that just happens to be the land their religion thrived in thousands of years ago, seems to be suspect.
But, your point is taken.

I suspect you had American Evangelical Christians in mind when you wrote this. I don't think that kind of unqualified, religiously-inspired support for Israel is shared by Christians more broadly.

Yes, not all Christians. I'm just amazed by the ones that are uncritically in support because of their religious beliefs.

[historia]

The problem is, they simply declared Israel as a nation, and displaced the Palestinians. This is a perfect example of how religion corrupts.

I disagree completely. Herzl and the early Zionists were almost entirely secular.

But this makes my point. While Herzl and many early Zionists were predominantly secular, it is also true that the Zionist movement included religious and diverse ideological currents as it developed and expanded. Eventually, and today, the religious aspect is a huge factor: Religion has corrupted the process.

It's not clear to me why you think that is the case. I'll grant you that there are more religious Zionists today than in 1897, 1948, or 1967. But how are they "corrupting the process," when secular Zionists were the ones who accomplished the two things -- declaring Israel a nation and displacing Palestinians -- you were concerned about?

The only other secular examples I can think of a race/culture of people wanting their own State are a few cults, and White racists thinking that Black and Brown people should be given a country to be shipped to.

Just off the top of my head, I can think of Kurdish, Quebecois, Basque, and Scottish independence movements, all of which are cases of ethnic groups seeking their own independent state. These type of secular movements have been at the center of much international conflict since World War I.

One must admit that the idea to grab a piece of land on the Med Sea, that just happens to be the land their religion thrived in thousands of years ago, seems to be suspect. But, your point is taken.

And your point is well taken, too. Clearly, Jews form a religio-ethnic community, so there is a religious component to the story of modern Israel.

But I would suggest to you that religion is, at best, a secondary motivation here. This is primarily a case in which of an ethnic minority in Europe fled persecution to establish their own country -- not unlike other contemporary and historical movements in which minority ethnic groups sought out their own state.

[boatsnguitars]

The problem is, they simply declared Israel as a nation, and displaced the Palestinians. This is a perfect example of how religion corrupts.

I disagree completely. Herzl and the early Zionists were almost entirely secular.

But this makes my point. While Herzl and many early Zionists were predominantly secular, it is also true that the Zionist movement included religious and diverse ideological currents as it developed and expanded. Eventually, and today, the religious aspect is a huge factor: Religion has corrupted the process.

It's not clear to me why you think that is the case. I'll grant you that there are more religious Zionists today than in 1897, 1948, or 1967. But how are they "corrupting the process," when secular Zionists were the ones who accomplished the two things -- declaring Israel a nation and displacing Palestinians -- you were concerned about?

The only other secular examples I can think of a race/culture of people wanting their own State are a few cults, and White racists thinking that Black and Brown people should be given a country to be shipped to.

Just off the top of my head, I can think of Kurdish, Quebecois, Basque, and Scottish independence movements, all of which are cases of ethnic groups seeking their own independent state. These type of secular movements have been at the center of much international conflict since World War I.

One must admit that the idea to grab a piece of land on the Med Sea, that just happens to be the land their religion thrived in thousands of years ago, seems to be suspect. But, your point is taken.

And your point is well taken, too. Clearly, Jews form a religio-ethnic community, so there is a religious component to the story of modern Israel.

But I would suggest to you that religion is, at best, a secondary motivation here. This is primarily a case in which of an ethnic minority in Europe fled persecution to establish their own country -- not unlike other contemporary and historical movements in which minority ethnic groups sought out their own state.

I'll take your word for it and look into a little more. It's not something I've spent a lot of time on, and I'd rather not try to defend any ignorant statements I make.
I still feel that religion has had a large part in convincing people of the support of Israel, but I agree that those kind of geo-political events are often much larger than one thing.

[Falling Light 101]

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The reason that the Palestinian were removed out of the land of Israel is very simple.

The Palestinian themselves were landowners who had divided up and separated portions of Israel - the Israelis purchased large portions of the land of Israel from the Palestinian landowners and allowed Palestinians who had no place to go to resettle directly right beside Israel and some within Israel - with the Idea that they would live in peace and receive the benefit of living among the Jewish people to have success, freedom, economy and obtain individual wealth.

ISRAEL WELCOMED THE PALESTINIANS TO LIVE IN THEIR OWN FREE STATE ALONG SIDE OF ISRAEL

The United Nations Resolution 181, in 1947 that called for the partition of Palestine into two separate regions - Arab and Jewish states, with the city of Jerusalem available to both states

The powerful Arabs countries protested and rejected the idea of the Jews having their own personal state.

Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee. An independent wealthy and free and peaceful Arab state would now exist beside Israel.

- Immediately the Muslim governments surrounding the region began to prepare for a massive VIOLENT ATTACK and declared war and threatened to exterminate all the Jews from Israel.

The Palestinians joined up with the Muslims and assembled themselves together and left behind their life of peace and success of living beside the Jews - they then began a new life and moved out and away from their homes in Israel because they were expecting a massive battle to take place and bring the destruction and extermination of the Jewish State and people

The Canaanites lost the war - but afterwards continued to wage a series of wars and terrorists attacks, bombing campaigns and assaults against Israel. And the more attempts they made to exterminate the Jews, the more they attack the deeper in poverty they become.

and the farther away from Israel they are forced back.

THE FACTS

In 1875, The Jews were the majority of the population of Jerusalem
and by 1905 - two-thirds of its citizens were all Jews

The Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1910 gives the total population figure of Jerusalem as 60,000, of whom 40,000 were Jews.

hundreds of millions of dollars were paid by Jewish buyers to Arab landowners - who owned the land and willingly sold the land. Most all Canaanites living in Israel did not own the land, they rented and many of them were nomads who simply were passing through from time to time and many were trespassers and squatters who were in hiding due to previous Arab against Arab wars and conflicts.

In 1944, Jews paid around $1,100 per - acre in Palestine for dry sandy unfertile lands. and hundreds of millions of dollars were paid to Canaanite land owners whom mostly were Muslim Governments who were the landowners. in the same year rich black soil in the state of Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre (U.S. Department of Agriculture).

Hundreds of millions of dollars were paid to Canaanite Islamic governments . The Arab Muslim countries began to see the Jews around the world returning to their homeland and the Canaanites simply were thrown into a demonic fit of foaming rage - war was declared and the Palestinians living along the borders of Israel moved out of the area because they expected that a war would successfully exterminate and enslave the Jewish people and they would then hold the surviving Jews for ransom and extract even more money.

When you envision and truly look a the situation of the facts, you see an historical Canaanite hatred for the Hebrew race with a religion that teaches that Jews are lower than animals such as pigs and monkeys and apes and deserve to be enslaved and humiliated and exterminated.

In WW ll the Arab countries assisted Adolf Hitler and 70,000 Muslims joined Adolf Hitler's SS Nazi army and 70,000 Muslims fought for Hitler and they were literally called { Jew hunters. } who hunted and captured and killed Jews in and around Middle East. - Also fighting against the Soviet Union border.

After WW ll - England, France and America who had defeated the Nazis and the 70,000 Islamic forces, then took full control of the Middle East - All Jews were then given safe passage to Israel Every single last problem that Muslim Canaanites have, they have brought upon themselves - by joining up with Hitler and afterwards continuing Hitler's war to destroy the Jews.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THE PALESTINIANS STIVE TO LIVE AS IF THEY ARE IN AN ETERNAL CONCENTRATION CAMP - they need to be seen as victims - build yourselves a concentration camp and check yourself in as a victim,

loosing means - being pushed farther and farther back away from those whom they attack and fail to exterminate.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Falling Light 101 in post #38

When you envision and truly look a the situation of the facts, you see an historical Canaanite hatred for the Hebrew race with a religion that teaches that Jews are lower than animals such as pigs and monkeys and apes and deserve to be enslaved and humiliated and exterminated.

The study in Cell not only establishes that the ancient Israelites were descended from the Canaanites, but also establishes that the Canaanite people across the separate city-states of the southern Levant, and over a period of 1,500 years, were a genetically cohesive people.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... anaanites/

The archeological evidence just doesn’t support the tales of the Old Testament, the authors argue. In fact, it’s the exact opposite: “the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause,” they write. “And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan — they emerged from within it. There was no mass Exodus from Egypt. There was no violent conquest of Canaan. Most of the people who formed early Israel were local people — the same people whom we see in the highlands throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages. The early Israelites were — irony of ironies — themselves originally Canaanites!”
https://www.thenotsoinnocentsabroad.com ... format=amp

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THE PALESTINIANS STIVE TO LIVE AS IF THEY ARE IN AN ETERNAL CONCENTRATION CAMP - they need to be seen as victims - build yourselves a concentration camp and check yourself in as a victim,

https://www.juancole.com/2022/12/united ... srael.html

[Falling Light 101]

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thanks for replying, i enjoyed the information you shared

however, the Bible does not make the claim that the Israelites were born from civilizations outside of Canaan.

There is no doubt that Abraham was a born as a Syrian citizen in the very region of Canaan -

exactly as the Bible announces.

the Bible states that Abraham traveled to Egypt from Canaan several times in times of famine and drought / dry weather - and Jacob his grandson traveled to Egypt " from Canaan " with his 12 sons.

they then lived in Egypt for 430 years and left Egypt returning back to Canaan....

as they attempted to peacefully return back to where Abraham lived, they often were attacked and terrorized, were being hunted down and massacred and violently abused by the Canaanites tribes and the Hebrew people were forced to defend themselves.

to rely upon historical data from the Canaanites and Egyptians is not a very reliable source - for example Israel today
- in modern times - although Israel defeated Egypt, Syria and Saudi Arabia in the wars they have fought,

the Egyptians, Syrians and Saudi Arabians propagated the untruthful claim that they in fact were the victors - if it were not for the " WORLD NEWS report , video camera and audio recording " the Egyptians, Syrians and Saudi Arabians would today be successful in changing the modern historical reality of their defeat.

the Egyptians and Canaanites in ancient times had full opportunity to suppress and extinguish and omit and delete all history about the Hebrew people.

just as modern America - the Europeans will never be able to blot out the history of the land and resources that they stole and took from the Native Americans but they sure have tried to castigate the situation as taking the land away from natives who were savages and evil pagans and bloody barbaric terrorists who were deserving their fate.

when in fact many Native Americans truly were barbaric but many were not - yet, having their lands stolen and raided by every European superpower in a matter of just a couple hundred years did not manipulate the natives to adapt their societies in a positive and good situation - but manipulated the natives into mass hysteria, warfare and inner self destruction and extreme desperation and implosion and denigration.

Between 80 and 100 million native Americans had died from horrible disease from European conquest before the formation of the United States, the only reason we have a historical record of this is because this has only been about 500 years ago

the Egyptians and Canaanites in ancient times have had 2000 - 3000 years to completely rewrite their history with no modern technology in recording and chronicle to sustain any truthful fact,.. the reality is that these Egyptian and Canaanite civilizations have next to nothing regarding recorded historical data, their written record of history is very limited and manipulated and focusing upon what the powerful and those with tools to leave a permanent form of inscribed record and what they to deemed as worthy to preserve and escribe and show as evident artifact history record