Where's God?

[POI]

Does he pop up in my dreams? Is he the one whom produces my goose-bumps? Is He the one giving me my "moral compass"? Is he only experienced during deep meditation? If I have enough faith, will he appear to me? But seriously. Where is he? I was a Christian for decades. I earnestly prayed for him to reach me, to no avail.

For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

How would you respond to this video that would suggest there are no "i use to be a Christian"

One cannot really rationalize with a presuppositionalist anyways. This is exactly what Sye Ten Bruggencate is... "Presupps" merely presuppose GOD is the foundation for their reasoning, no matter what. And the question then becomes, why? Is it merely due to the argument from ignorance alone, or, any other fallacious type of reasoning? Further, if you read what I have written elsewhere, it was still a process which ultimately took me decades. I didn't just wake up one day and say, "nah, it's not likely."

The answer to "Why?" can be "because i have faith"...

Why apply faith to this belief system and not any other? I've told you this before... The more evidence obtained, the less faith needed/required, and vise versa.

In fact I am ultimately convinced that faith has to be part of our beliefs...

Depends on what you mean exactly by the word faith? I mean, are we speaking about a confidence level? If so, my confidence level, in that a YWHW exists is <1%. Hence, I have little faith. On the other hand, I could set here and question the stated shape of the earth. Maybe it is not spherical? But I'd place my confidence level at 99.99% that the earth is in some form of a sphere.

Even if you were given undeniable evidence of God, you could still not believe it, or later rationalize out of it...

This goes right back to what I have already told you above, and prior. The more evidence obtained, the less faith needed/required, and vise versa. Do you have 'undeniable evidence' of God? If so, then you really have little use for faith.

You could always ask for more evidence... Even if some piece of evidence is satisfied, you could just demand for more evidence after that, and that piece gets satisfied and you could demand more.. Ultimately without faith, how can you even know something that is all knowing? You will never have the all knowing knowledge of God... You could just ask for more and more and more, but ultimately faith needs to be part of that belief. Somewhere you would need to have faith, no matter how much evidence you have..

As I've told you prior, save this line of argumentation for your next philosophy class.

You didnt really answer the question Sye posed... You just attacked his style of debate, like an ad hominem...

I did not apply an ad hom.... He is a presupp. Is he not? Presupps START with God. And ironically enough, I guess I used to start with 'god' too, until I ultimately lost my faith, or confidence level. After understanding my story, do you blame me?

How is it that a person can be an unbeliever if they were a believer (which is by faith)? (1 John 2:19)

I'm not sure how much more clear I can be here. I feel I've explained myself ad nauseam. Tried as I might, for decades, I received nothing from any such God. Hence (from the OP):

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

[Shem Yoshi]

[Replying to POI in post #211]

Well belief is by faith, its not by God communicating with you...

[brunumb]

[Replying to POI in post #211]

Well belief is by faith, its not by God communicating with you...

Faith is only necessary when there is no compelling evidence to justify belief. If God communicated with you, then you would know he was real and you would believe without the need for faith.

[Shem Yoshi]

[Replying to POI in post #211]

Well belief is by faith, its not by God communicating with you...

Faith is only necessary when there is no compelling evidence to justify belief. If God communicated with you, then you would know he was real and you would believe without the need for faith.

Say what you will, it doesnt take away the fact that belief is by Faith.

And Faith is beautiful thing, in fact it is even more great being apart from any evidence at all. none... I love that i can have faith. And I dont need to rely on anything but God... I can live without everything and be faithful. Hallelujah


Unlike this cheap talk about God not fulfilling your demands... "he didnt give me a cookie. So now i dont believe"... that isnt faith...

[brunumb]

Say what you will, it doesnt take away the fact that belief is by Faith.

Therein lies the problem. Faith is a useless arbiter of truth. it is the last refuge when nothing else offers any compelling reason to believe.

And Faith is beautiful thing, in fact it is even more great being apart from any evidence at all. none... I love that i can have faith. And I dont need to rely on anything but God... I can live without everything and be faithful. Hallelujah

That's like saying gullibility is a beautiful thing. Or that relinquishing intelligence and reasoning is a beautiful thing. It is rather naive to think that one does not need to rely on anything but God. Everyone who has ever been scammed out of their hard earned savings has relied on faith in the truth of what they were being told. Religious faith is just as dangerous. You could ask the Heaven's Gate faithful, if they were still alive.

Unlike this cheap talk about God not fulfilling your demands... "he didnt give me an orgasm. So now i dont believe"... that isnt faith...Say what you will, it doesnt take away the fact that belief is by Faith.

Yikes! Where did that come from? Projection? Anyway, non-believers do not make demands of a non-existent God. This persistent claim that belief is by faith merely serves to underline the paucity of the argument for the existence of God.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #211]

Well belief is by faith, its not by God communicating with you...

You pretty much dodged just about everything I said. I will (highlight/reword) my points again, for your convenience. Maybe try answering this time around :

1. What do you mean exactly by the word "faith"? Is it synonymous with the word(s) <confidence level, trust level, hope level, other>? I explained what it would mean, if it resembles one's <confidence level>.
2. Why not just go ahead and also apply this faith to any other stated/claimed god, since it is not based upon being convinced by evidence?
3. "Undeniable evidence" would, by definition, virtually eliminate the necessity for faith --- outside of arguing that we are all in a dream, in the Matrix, or any other proposition argued in a philosophy 101 class.
4. A "presupp" starts with God. You cannot argue about the possible existence of God with a "presupp".
5. Can you blame me for loosing my 30+ years of faith, being that God never did what the Bible says He would do? Wouldn't it require my insanity to remain in faith anyways?

And to answer your question, in another way... It's like accusing a child that they never really believed in Santa Claus, in the first place. It's like calling that child a liar. Once they loose their faith in Santa, due to alternative evidence, then they must have never really believed anyways

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #211]

Well belief is by faith, its not by God communicating with you...

Faith is only necessary when there is no compelling evidence to justify belief. If God communicated with you, then you would know he was real and you would believe without the need for faith.

Say what you will, it doesnt take away the fact that belief is by Faith.

And Faith is beautiful thing, in fact it is even more great being apart from any evidence at all. none... I love that i can have faith. And I dont need to rely on anything but God... I can live without everything and be faithful. Hallelujah


Unlike this cheap talk about God not fulfilling your demands... "he didnt give me a cookie. So now i dont believe"... that isnt faith...

I do not rate Faith very highly. It is - in the context of religion - believing something for no good reason and even insisting on believing it when the evidence is against it.

[Shem Yoshi]

[Replying to brunumb in post #215]
[Replying to POI in post #216]
[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #217]


"hope against hope".. Is the Faith of Abraham (Romans 4:18)... Faith was the first cause, not a cheap antidote to manipulate one to believe.

"Hope against all hope" (Roman 4:18) Abraham had faith in God who said his children would fill the nations, in old age with no child. Hope against hope. Which Abraham was commended for. The Faith of God rooted in Abraham.

Then, when God spoke of the plan of the death of his only son, the same son whom the promise was in, Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, for his only begotten Son was to die, and in him was the promise (Hebrews 11:19).

Hallelujah... The Faith of God. We can have faith in God even in like the instance of Abraham. Hope against all hope... Abraham reasoned by Faith in God (Hebrews 11:19)...

It wasnt Abraham praying "give me a son to have many nations, like you promised, and i will believe"...

No Abraham was willing to let the promise of God die off, for he had Faith in God. And reasoned by Faith... He reasoned God must be able to raise the dead.

(Romans 4:18), ESV: In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”

(Hebrews 11) 17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

Hallelujah, we can have Faith in God, in Hope Against all Hope.

Unlike this cheap belief that god neeeds to communicate with you or your wont believe him.

And what happen with Abraham? Even in his Faithful reasoning, that God must be able to raise the dead when Isaac was about to die, God stopped the death of Isaac... So not even the reasoning of Abraham was to his knowledge, he reasoned God was going to raise Isaac from the dead, or that "God could raise even the dead"... But God stopped Abraham, fulfilled the promise, and THEN 1500 years later God rose the dead, just like Abraham reasoned by Faith, solidifying the faith of Abraham in Christ.

Carried by spirit, as the prophets are, not by their own knowing but by the spirit of God, and God fulfilled it not by their knowing but by the will of God.

[POI]

[Replying to brunumb in post #215]
[Replying to POI in post #216]
[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #217]


"hope against hope".. Is the Faith of Abraham (Romans 4:18)... Faith was the first cause, not a cheap antidote to manipulate one to believe.

"Hope against all hope" (Roman 4:18) Abraham had faith in God who said his children would fill the nations, in old age with no child. Hope against hope. Which Abraham was commended for. The Faith of God rooted in Abraham.

Then, when God spoke of the plan of the death of his only son, the same son whom the promise was in, Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, for his only begotten Son was to die, and in him was the promise (Hebrews 11:19).

Hallelujah... The Faith of God. We can have faith in God even in like the instance of Abraham. Hope against all hope... Abraham reasoned by Faith in God (Hebrews 11:19)...

It wasnt Abraham praying "give me a son to have many nations, like you promised, and i will believe"...

No Abraham was willing to let the promise of God die off, for he had Faith in God. And reasoned by Faith... He reasoned God must be able to raise the dead.

(Romans 4:18), ESV: In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”

(Hebrews 11) 17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

Hallelujah, we can have Faith in God, in Hope Against all Hope.

Unlike this cheap belief that god neeeds to communicate with you or your wont believe him.

And what happen with Abraham? Even in his Faithful reasoning, that God must be able to raise the dead when Isaac was about to die, God stopped the death of Isaac... So not even the reasoning of Abraham was to his knowledge, he reasoned God was going to raise Isaac from the dead, or that "God could raise even the dead"... But God stopped Abraham, fulfilled the promise, and THEN 1500 years later God rose the dead, just like Abraham reasoned by Faith, solidifying the faith of Abraham in Christ.

Carried by spirit, as the prophets are, not by their own knowing but by the spirit of God, and God fulfilled it not by their knowing but by the will of God.

Aside from clarifying "hope" in Q1, you again pretty much ignored everything else in post 216. I give up.

[Eloi]

You can perceive GOD in the whole planet.