Where's God?

[POI]

Does he pop up in my dreams? Is he the one whom produces my goose-bumps? Is He the one giving me my "moral compass"? Is he only experienced during deep meditation? If I have enough faith, will he appear to me? But seriously. Where is he? I was a Christian for decades. I earnestly prayed for him to reach me, to no avail.

For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

[alexxcJRO]

All and all, all theists have bailed. Which is why I still content that the 'divine hiddenness' topic clearly goes after the Christian god the best, to demonstrate it's unlikeliness.

Genuine disbelief, gratuitous evils & gratuitous suffering, psychopathy clearly disprove the existence of Yahweh-Jesus.
And we are not talking of lack of belief and unlikeliness because of lack of compelling evidence. Its outright logically impossible for Yahweh-Jesus to exist.

[POI]

Bumping this topic back to the top to see if any new Christian participants, or existing Christian participants, have anything new to add. Otherwise, this topic looks to present another unresolved problem for Christians. Thus far, the silence is deafening.

[POI]

Bumping this topic back to the top to see if any new Christian participants, or existing Christian participants, have anything new to add. Otherwise, this topic looks to present another unresolved problem for Christians. Thus far, the silence is deafening.

[POI]

Bumping this topic back to the top (again) to see if any new Christian participants, or existing Christian participants, have anything new to add. Otherwise, this topic looks to present another unresolved problem for Christians. Thus far, the silence is deafening.

[POI]

(4th request)

Bumping this topic back to the top (again) to see if any new Christian participants, or existing Christian participants, have anything new to add. Otherwise, this topic looks to present another unresolved problem for Christians. Thus far, the silence is deafening.

[POI]

(5th request)

Bumping this topic back to the top (again) to see if any new Christian participants, or existing Christian participants, have anything new to add. Otherwise, this topic looks to present another unresolved problem for Christians. Thus far, the silence is deafening.

[POI]

(6th request)

Bumping this topic back to the top (again) to see if any new Christian participants, or existing Christian participants, have anything new to add. Otherwise, this topic looks to present another unresolved problem for Christians. Thus far, the silence is deafening.

[Mae von H]

Does he pop up in my dreams? Is he the one whom produces my goose-bumps? Is He the one giving me my "moral compass"? Is he only experienced during deep meditation? If I have enough faith, will he appear to me? But seriously. Where is he? I was a Christian for decades. I earnestly prayed for him to reach me, to no avail.

For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

Why do you need to experience his presence? Why is this important? But let me give my answers to the above second set of questions.


P1) does god exist? (dunno) definately
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so). correct
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so). definately but there are conditions on our side
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so).
no, not at all. That is something He does not do. It goes against free will He values.
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES) What are you expecting? I mean this kindly and not as a criticism. By which measure are you applying the expected answer? I can only address this if I know the expectations on your part.
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES). There are conditions. There are times where God says clearly that to some, he will not answer. I know the popular teaching that "God always answers" but God Himself said in no uncertain terms, "I will not answer them." So sometimes He does not answer and we can read why. Our part is avoid being the sort of people God does not answer. It is not rocket science.

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

Again, what exactly are you asking for? Are you asking for an experience? Then you will certainly not get any answer that is an experience. (I think of this because this has replaced obedience or service or anything else. Some even advertise "come and experience God" as a slogan as though God were an amusement part ride. How degrading!!)

I hope you can read kindness even if direct in my post. I mean it all in kindness. You seem desperate and I think platitudes like "He will answer some day, just keep on doing as you are doing" to be weak. No one is in any position to give you a blanket promise on this unless they give you the prerequisites on your part and/or hear from God himself for you. (rarely true)

[Mae von H]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #222

Ok, the discussion about a god not specific to any particular religion is a different one, but if we doubt the Bible and the religions and gods based on it, which religion can we not have doubts about?

We can question all of them, but we have to question each of them in its own right and on its own merits.

Thank you. Yes. We have to examine them on their own merits. Thus, Christianity apparently has factual/historical support. Islam a close second as few people would argue that Muhammad never existed, and Buddhism perhaps no 3. This is the Real debate, not whether cosmic origins or Abiogenesis are evidence for a god, because that does not get you any particular religion, which is all that - in a practical sense - matters.

It is why, though I debate these other apologetics, the only one that matters is Bible credibility, specifically the gospels and particularly the resurrection -accounts, because Christianity stands or falls on that, and if it falls (and it does) Christianity is done and dusted and none of the other debates even matter.

Since our pal has not come back I reckon we can say the case is sound - that 'god' doesn't matter but only the God of a particular religion, which is to say the Christian one and that means the Bible is the subject of debate, not theist abstracts. Now the God is under parameters. His actions, orders, directives, morals and promises are under scrutiny. Christians know that prayer doesn't work. They don';t know, but I'll remind them that they judge God using human morals (or they wouldn't need excuses). They know that science and logic rebuts the Bible , which is why so many dismiss logic and decry science (unless it suits them) and they know the problem of evil really means the world looks like it would if there was no god there.

We have heard all the apologetics, but it has no case. It is not 'the evidence shows a god', it is more ok the evidence rather shows no god, but maybe we are seeing it wrong'. What they call 'evidence' is really denial of the evidence.

All great points. Thus far, the only one to even try to challenge my (6) premises was AquinaforGod, in P6 alone. But I think he soon realized that this one too was sound. All and all, all theists have bailed. Which is why I still content that the 'divine hiddenness' topic clearly goes after the Christian god the best, to demonstrate it's unlikeliness. A close second would be prayer --> (http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=41082).

I will still periodically update this topic, but do not expect much at all, from the Christian populous

Well yes, if I may be so bold, few Christians think about what they believe and why. There is a generally lack of intellectual wherewithal in our society. Few can think. Most are taught to parrot. Others do the thinking for them which is demonstrated in links and clips instead of presenting one's own intellectual material. Its "read this link cause this guy can tell you what I think" mostly. And no one is embarrassed to do so which I find astounding. No one expects their own mind to think and be able to articulate those thoughts.

I know what I believe and why and what I do not believe and why and there is no question an atheist can ask me that I have not asked myself over the course of many decades. And I found intellectually satisfying answers, not the platitudes and not borrowed answers. But in my experience, God Himself can speak and atheists hear only thunder so I have no hopes of any response that hints at the material being understood let alone received. Nevertheless you can ask any question that is not insulting to me or anyone else...including God.

[POI]

P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so).
no, not at all. That is something He does not do. It goes against free will He values.

I have to stop you right here... Your answer implies being convinced of something hinged upon free will. But that is not true. If this were true, you could simply 'will' yourself to be convinced of something for which you are not already convinced about. If this God exists, this God apparently knows what it would take to convince anyone of his existence. God either apparently presents it, or he doesn't. He apparently does for some, and not others. Hence, for some reason, he chooses not to present the convincing evidence to me. Why? Like I stated, because he is not really there.