Trinity

[Ross]

Where did this concept come from?

I would suggest it began with John 1:1

[onewithhim]

No one in the Greek speaking language understood Jesus to be THE God.

Actually you're quite wrong. Nowhere in the Greek or Hebrew language is the definite article and the word god used where Jesus is concerned. This is all in your head and is not based on facts.

Pay attention to the words ........There is no definite article when referring to Jesus. In the absence of the definite article it translates that Jesus is not The God.

It is not in my head. It is in the same book of John that I have been addressing, chapter 20:28.

"And Thomas answered him and said to him: "My Lord and My God""

As you said to me, pay attention to the words:

KAI APEKRITHE HO THOMAS KAI EPEN AUTO HO KURIOS MOU KAI HO THEOS MOU

And answered the Thomas and said to him The Lord of me and The God of me

Check this in your Watchtower Wescott and Hort Kingdom Interlinear.

There is the definite article. And there is Jesus called The God. Testified by Thomas and John, acknowledged by Jesus, inspired by God.

Just because this is what Thomas said that doesn't mean that both titles were directed at Jesus. Lord was certainly directed at Jesus but you have no proof that My God was directed at Jesus. This too is in your head.

Oh my goodness! You people read too many Watchtower comics.

"And Thomas answered him and said to him: "My Lord and My God""

Oh come on. Apparently you haven't read enough Watchtower comics. Haven't you ever said, "Oh my God" when confronting something quite astonishing? Yet you are not calling the astonishing thing The God. Who is to say that Thomas was not uttering an exclamation over what he saw and heard? He is the ONLY disciple that is written about to possibly claim that Jesus is God. None other has said that Jesus is God, anywhere. If that were true, that Jesus is God, certainly John would have mentioned it in his closing remarks, but John reiterated the truth that Jesus is the SON of God, not God.

John wrote: "These have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." (John 20:31) Surely if it was true that Jesus is God Almighty, John would've taken that opportunity to state that this was true. But he said that Jesus was the Son, not God Himself.

Peter said to Jesus: "You are the Christ, the SON of the living God." (Matthew 16:16)

[Ross]

"And Thomas answered him and said to him: "My Lord and My God""


KAI APEKRITHE HO THOMAS KAI EPEN AUTO HO KURIOS MOU KAI HO THEOS MOU

And answered the Thomas and said to him The Lord of me and The God of me



There is the definite article. And there is Jesus called The God. Testified by Thomas and John, acknowledged by Jesus, inspired by God.

Just because this is what Thomas said that doesn't mean that both titles were directed at Jesus. Lord was certainly directed at Jesus but you have no proof that My God was directed at Jesus. This too is in your head.
[/quote]

Oh my goodness! You people read too many Watchtower comics.

"And Thomas answered him and said to him: "My Lord and My God""

[/quote]

Oh come on. Apparently you haven't read enough Watchtower comics. Haven't you ever said, "Oh my God" when confronting something quite astonishing? Yet you are not calling the astonishing thing The God. Who is to say that Thomas was not uttering an exclamation over what he saw and heard? He is the ONLY disciple that is written about to possibly claim that Jesus is God. None other has said that Jesus is God, anywhere. If that were true, that Jesus is God, certainly John would have mentioned it in his closing remarks, but John reiterated the truth that Jesus is the SON of God, not God.
[/quote]

" And Thomas answered him and said to him "Oh my God! My Lord!"

Why attempt to distort the manuscripts when it doesn't fit your pre- conceived doctrine?

Why attempt to explain away clear unadulterated uncontested scripture?

It fits the entire Gospel of John from start to finish.

[tigger 2]

My Lord and My God

Notice the parallel between 1 Samuel 20:12 (where Jonathan’s words appear to be directed to David: “... Jonathan saith unto David, ‘Jehovah, God of Israel - when I search my father, about this time tomorrow ....’” - Young’s Literal Translation, cf. KJV) and John 20:28 (where Thomas’ words appear to be directed to Jesus: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”).

The significant point here is that, although the scripture shows Jonathan speaking to David, it apparently literally calls him (David) “O LORD God of Israel”!! (For a straightforward literal translation see 1 Samuel 20:12 in the King James Version.) You can bet that, if modern Bible translators wanted to find “evidence” that made King David also appear to be equally God (Quadrinarians?), they would continue to translate this scripture addressed to David just as literally as they do John 20:28 to “prove” that Jesus is equally God!

Instead, we see many modern translations adding words to bring out what they believe may have been originally intended. There is absolutely no reason for this addition except the translators believe from the testimony of the rest of the Bible that David is not Jehovah God. So something else must have been intended here.

The very fact that the words of Thomas are not a complete statement show that it is probably the abbreviated form of a common expression or doxology (abbreviated praise to the Father) and not a statement of identification such as “you are my lord and my god.” Whereas doxologies and other common expressions are frequently abbreviated to the point of not being complete statements, statements of identification appear to be complete statements (certainly in the writings of John, at least), e.g., Jn 1:49, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.” - NASB. Cf. Jn. 6:14, 69; 7:40, 41; 9:17; 11:27; 21:7.

Furthermore, in the writings of John, when using the term “Lord” in address to another person, a different form of the NT Greek word is always used instead of the form found at John 20:28 (ho kurios mou).

“The vocative is the case used in addressing a person .... κύριε [kurie] (O Lord), Θεέ (O God) ... are almost the only forms found in the N.T.” - pp. 14, 15, The New Testament Greek Primer, Rev. Alfred Marshall, Zondervan, 1978 printing.

This is especially true of “Lord” and “my Lord” in both the Septuagint and the New Testament. Kurie (κύριε), not kurios (κύριος), is the form used when addressing someone as “Lord” or “My Lord.” - See the KURIE study: http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... ress.html (“God,” Θεέ, however, is not so certain.)

We can see a good example of this vocative form, which is used in addressing a person as “Lord,” at 3 Kings 1:20, 21 (1 Kings 1:20, 21 in modern English Bibles) in the ancient Greek of the Septuagint: “And you, my Lord [Κύριέ μου ], O King ...” - 3 Kings 1:20, Septuagint. Then at 3 Kings 1:21 we see the same person (King David) being spoken about (but not addressed) in the same terms as Jn 20:28: “And it shall come to pass, when my Lord [ὁ κύριος μου ] the king shall sleep with his fathers .... - 3 Kings 1:21, Septuagint.

We also find Thomas himself, at Jn 14:5, addressing Jesus as “Lord” by using κύριε. And, when addressing the angel at Rev. 7:14, John himself says kurie mou (“My Lord”)!

There are 33 uses of kurie in the Gospel of John alone. Here are a few of them: John 9:38; 11:3, 12, 21, 27, 32, 34, 39; 13:6, 9, 25, 36, 37; 14:5. (Compare these with an actual identification of the lord: “it is the lord [kurios],” John 21:7 – Also, for Colwell’s Rule fans, note the use of the article and the word order of the clause in the two clauses identifying the Lord here.)

Therefore, it is safe to say that when John wrote down the incident with Thomas at Jn 20:28 and used the nominative form for “My Lord” [κύριος μου] he was not saying that Thomas was addressing Jesus as “My Lord and my God!”

[This is an excerpt from my personal study of John 20:28 - http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... mygod.html

[Eloi]

(...) Oh come on. Apparently you haven't read enough Watchtower comics. (...)

Just enmarking for the Staff Members to see well.

That same derogatory line of mockery against Jehovah's Witnesses has already been censored by the Administrators of the website.

[JehovahsWitness]

DID THOMAS SAY JESUS WAS ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH JEHOVAH?

No, he didn't ! he said "My Lord and My God".

In the original language God theos/(Hebrew El) simply means powerful one, and is a recognition of that which we recognize as more powerful/superior to ourselves. He made no statement about Jesus being the established object of worship, nor of Jesus' supremacy, nor of his relative position to The Father, nor of who Christians in general or even (if we are contrasting with Paul) the Corinthians should or should not worship,... All such statements were absent. He simply made an exclamation that reconized both

JW




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[Miles]

DID THOMAS SAY JESUS WAS ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH JEHOVAH?

No, he didn't ! he said "My Lord and My God".

And what did Jesus himself say? How about:


........................


.

[JehovahsWitness]

WHAT DID JESUS MEAN THAT HE AND HIS FATHER WERE ONE?



Jesus could not here have intended to say that he was literally "one God" with the Father since , according to the Catholic NAB translation, he went on to pray regading his disciples

NEW AMERICAN BIBLE
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they [his disciples] may be one, as we are one - John 17:21

In the gospel account which describes Jesus conversation on the passover night, the same Greek word is used for "one" with God as also used for "one" with his disciples. Obviously this could not mean Jesus disciples were Almighty God and part of a trinity!

Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary p. 62, Baker Book House, 1977 states:

The particle en [hen] being of the neuter gender, can hardly signify one being, i.e. one God, but rather one in will, purpose, counsel...

JW




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http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... -1030.html


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[Miles]

WHAT DID JESUS MEAN THAT HE AND HIS FATHER WERE ONE?



Jesus could not here have intended to say that he was literally "one God" with the Father since , according to the Catholic NAB translation, he went on to pray regadingbhis disciples

The Catholic NAB??? The Catholic NAB? OMG, have you gone over to the other side or is it that you had to go Bible shopping because your New World Translation doesn't support your contention or that it contains some embarrassing comment?

Let's see'

NEW AMERICAN BIBLE
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they [his disciples] may be one, as we are one - John 17:21

VS

NEW WORLD TRANSLATION
John 17:21
21 so that they may all be one,+ just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you,+ that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.

WOW!... That's one heck of a difference. Exceedingly more than the minor differences existing between the 62 Bible versions I just scanned. So I won't even try to guess why you abandoned the New World Translation for the New American Bible.

In any case, why did the fact that Jesus went on to pray regarding his disciples prevent him from being "one with his father"? The reason you give for Jesus not intending to say he was literally "one God"?

Jesus used the same Greek word [hen] for his disciples as he did for himself and God. Obviously Jesus was not saying his disciples were Almighty God and part of a trinity!

Of course not. Just as Jesus and god were united, so too were his disciples united. But why should anyone care that "hen" is used? Jesus never said "he was literally "one God" with the Father," but rather that he and his father were one. Hardly the same claim.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

WOW! ...That's one heck of a difference.

Sorry, I quoted verse 22 but marked it as verse 21....

Verse 21: so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.

Verse 22: And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one

source : https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXP.HTM

[JehovahsWitness]

WHAT DID JESUS MEAN THAT HE AND HIS FATHER WERE ONE?



Jesus could not here have intended to say that he was literally "one God" with the Father since , according to the Catholic NAB translation, he went on to pray regarding his disciples

NEW AMERICAN BIBLE

Verse 21: so that they [Jesus disciples] may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.

Verse 22: And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one

source : https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXP.HTM

In the gospel account which describes Jesus conversation on the passover night, the same Greek word [hen] is used for "one" with God is also used for "one" with his disciples. Obviously this could not mean Jesus disciples were Almighty God and part of a trinity!

Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary p. 62, Baker Book House, 1977 states:

The particle en [hen] being of the neuter gender, can hardly signify one being, i.e. one God, but rather one in will, purpose, counsel...

JW




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http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... -1030.html


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