Apostasy!

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historia
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Apostasy!

Post #1

Post by historia »

For those who believe the Early Church fell into apostasy, when did this happen?

If I want to compare early Christian sources that are pre-apostasy with those that are post-apostasy, what date should I set?

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Re: Apostasy!

Post #11

Post by onewithhim »

historia wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:41 pm For those who believe the Early Church fell into apostasy, when did this happen?

If I want to compare early Christian sources that are pre-apostasy with those that are post-apostasy, what date should I set?
The Apostasy started even when Paul was still alive on Earth, as well as Peter and John. Paul said: "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves." (Acts 20:29,30) John wrote: "...This is the antichrist's inspired statement that you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world." (I John 4:3b)

The Apostasy was gaining momentum even in the Apostles' lifetime, and when the last Apostle died there was no restraint. I wouldn't give any attention to so-called disciples' writing after John died at the end of the first century, and after Clement, Polycarp and Ignatius.

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Re: Apostasy!

Post #12

Post by 2timothy316 »

historia wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:02 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:17 am
So if you're looking for a date, an exact date can't be produced. Why? Because it wasn't as if the great apostasy happened on a specific day, it was gradual and spanned decades.
I'll take a rough date, give or take a couple of decades. What is your estimate?
Since John said the last hour was during his writings of the the 90s CE it would seem right after that time It just went from bad to worse. Starting with the decentralization of Christianity. With this disunity, so-called Christians began fighting each other, even violently, over the nature of God. After one side came out on top they made the church the center of everything including putting themselves as the head of state. The hellfire doctrine was introduced and they begin teaching that they were the ones who decided got into Heaven. Lets not forget about the 'holy wars' that broke out. They tried to keep the Word of God bottled up by keeping the scriptures in a dead language, killing common people who tried to read the Bible or tried to translate it into a common language and much more including torture and incorporating racism, nationalism, and other 'isms' in their teachings.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Apostasy!

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Biblical references indicate the first century writers (including Paul) saw the seeds being sown but held things in check. The process we can assume began in ernest mid the second century, with the church becoming almost unrecognisable by the end of the third. I dont think a date is possible but an examination in hindsight of the politics, teachings and practices of early "christianity" is telling.



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Re: Apostasy!

Post #14

Post by historia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:17 pm
The process we can assume began in ernest mid the second century, with the church becoming almost unrecognisable by the end of the third.
I'm curious why you think the process only "began in earnest" in the mid-2nd century.

If I understand onewithhim and 2timothy316 correctly, they seem to think it was more-or-less complete by the mid-2nd century.

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Re: Apostasy!

Post #15

Post by Eloi »

historia wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:56 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:17 pm
The process we can assume began in ernest mid the second century, with the church becoming almost unrecognisable by the end of the third.
I'm curious why you think the process only "began in earnest" in the mid-2nd century.

If I understand onewithhim and 2timothy316 correctly, they seem to think it was more-or-less complete by the mid-2nd century.
In apostolic times there were already antichrists who were teaching manmade doctrines about almost every Christian topic. In the middle of the 2nd century, some time after the death of the Apostle John (who kept the original teachings alive) false ideas began to spread more strongly, until the Roman Emperor Constantine took control over the church, turning it into his puppet, and implanted it as the official religion in the empire, giving rise to a syncretization of Christianity-paganism-Neoplatonism.

2 Thess. 2:6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way.

1 John 2:18 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour.

Antichrist, apostasy and the "lawless one’s presence" refer to the same thing.

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Re: Apostasy!

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

historia wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:56 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:17 pm
The process we can assume began in ernest mid the second century, with the church becoming almost unrecognisable by the end of the third.
I'm curious why you think the process only "began in earnest" in the mid-2nd century.

If I understand onewithhim and 2timothy316 correctly, they seem to think it was more-or-less complete by the mid-2nd century.

Well the way I see it if the last of the Apotles died at the turn of the century, the congregation would still have had men and women that learnt first hand from them. These men and women for a while might have held back the worst of the rot as it were.

The early Christians of the first half of the second century as a whole, protected their scripture , faced persecution with integrity, showed brotherly love and attempted to stay true to Jesus teachings; the divisions, fragmentations and false ideas were making inroads but the wave would not have entirely engulfed them...I don't think that it was a case of when John breathed his last the entire brotherhood crumbled with the year (not that that is what Tim was suggesting). If it was a gradual process that picked up speed exponentially, then those that had "learnt at the feet if the Apostles" must have had some kind of balancing influence against the inevitable, at least for a while ...


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Re: Apostasy!

Post #17

Post by historia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:49 pm
Well the way I see it if the last of the Apotles died at the turn of the century, the congregation would still have had men and women that learnt first hand from them. These men and women for a while might have held back the worst of the rot as it were.

. . .

If it was a gradual process that picked up speed exponentially, then those that had "learnt at the feet if the Apostles" must have had some kind of balancing influence against the inevitable, at least for a while
So, this raises a point I was going to make as well. If the Christian community fell into apostasy as soon as the last apostle died, as several here have suggested, then doesn't that reflect rather poorly on the apostles? It would seem they didn't do a very good job in teaching or succession planning if that was the case.

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Re: Apostasy!

Post #18

Post by historia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:49 pm
Re: 3rd century events : (start 21"00)
https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#e ... 01_7_VIDEO
Thanks for the link. What were you hoping I would get out of this video?

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Re: Apostasy!

Post #19

Post by onewithhim »

historia wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:56 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:17 pm
The process we can assume began in ernest mid the second century, with the church becoming almost unrecognisable by the end of the third.
I'm curious why you think the process only "began in earnest" in the mid-2nd century.

If I understand onewithhim and 2timothy316 correctly, they seem to think it was more-or-less complete by the mid-2nd century.
No. It continued to build and build, and the church itself has said that it was basically complete by the 9th century.

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Re: Apostasy!

Post #20

Post by onewithhim »

historia wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:36 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:49 pm
Well the way I see it if the last of the Apotles died at the turn of the century, the congregation would still have had men and women that learnt first hand from them. These men and women for a while might have held back the worst of the rot as it were.

. . .

If it was a gradual process that picked up speed exponentially, then those that had "learnt at the feet if the Apostles" must have had some kind of balancing influence against the inevitable, at least for a while
So, this raises a point I was going to make as well. If the Christian community fell into apostasy as soon as the last apostle died, as several here have suggested, then doesn't that reflect rather poorly on the apostles? It would seem they didn't do a very good job in teaching or succession planning if that was the case.
You might as well say that Jesus himself didn't do a very good job then. Evil rears its ugly head even after or around the best teachers.

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