Is homosexuality inherently harmful?

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Wyn Morrigan
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Is homosexuality inherently harmful?

Post #1

Post by Wyn Morrigan »

In another topic ( Is patriarchy inherently wrong? ), mms20102 and I strayed a bit off topic to the question of whether homosexuality is harmful to the participants in itself, and per their suggestion, I have moved that aspect of the discussion to another thread.
mms20102 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:06 am
Every major medical and psychological research and treatment organization in the world agrees that homosexuality is a real, natural phenomenon, and that there are individuals who are attracted only to individuals of the same sex, though I'm not going to waste my time finding lists of all of them. Psychologists used to consider homosexuality a mental disorder - but they don't anymore.

And to be sure, I am not telling you that science is infallible; scientists make mistakes all the time.
But what I am telling you is that international scientific organizations, and large groups of scientists and researchers? Don't like to change their mind on established science. If they do, it will mean that many of them have wasted years or decades of their lives in irrelevant research.
They only reverse themselves on previous established theory when presented with overwhelming mountains of evidence they cannot ignore.

I'm not saying that science is never wrong; what I AM saying is that if large bodies of scientific researchers pull a complete 180? change their minds completely upon a specific point or theory?
It is possible that they are still wrong. But it is an effective certainty that they were wrong.
They call what you just said Bandwagon Fallacy. Where you are basing your argument on the majority of people accepting it other than focusing on the idea itself.
You disagreed with all the overwhelming studies of past but you are only agreeing with current studies only because it fits your personal preference not because it shows real evidence.
Yes organizations and psychologists had to do this because some idiots used wrong methods to identify homosexuality and wrong methods to treat it (Thanks to the church and pastors) and in return we have some psychologists that made a great work for the favor of making homosexuals understand their probem and engage back in hetrosexual relationships.
and I will mention two books that I don't expect you to read but only for the sake telling you that what you think is not the ultimate truth:
1- Battle for Normality by Gerard J.M. van den Aardweg (about gay relationships)
2- The Heart of Female Same-Sex Attraction Janelle Hallman (about lesbian relationships)

Of course not to mention the health problems and risks happened due to out of marriage and same-sex relationships

now do you know that only the attempt of helping homosexual get rid of his feelings is considered as crime ?
Not only homosexuality was forced to be normal for political reasons but also people who seek treatment are ignored and forcedly pushed to stay homosexual.

I'm not here to discuss homosexuality so if you want to discuss it then open another thread since this thread speaks about patriarchy which you avoid speaking about.
We also strayed to the related question of whether having same-sex parents is harmful to children:
Looking over your response, it appears that you believe that...
Such women <Note - this is referring to women in same-sex marriages who have children> should break apart a happy marriage and traumatize their children in order to take a long shot in the dating lottery that they can find a man who would be a better provider for them and their children?
And you think this would be less harmful to them and/or their children?
As a Muslim yes they should not use sperm of unknown men to have children that they don't know who is their real father and live in house without a father where they are fully prone to psychological disorders due to the lack of a father.

And you can check those sites here to see what are the risks and again those are few out of many

https://oureverydaylife.com/psychologic ... 41414.html
https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/P ... t-A-Father
https://drprem.com/globalhealthcare/fat ... -on-a-girl
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... her-hunger

Now you will argue as long they are two the child won't feel the difference this child has a different opinion
https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/six-da ... u1ue5.html
Topics for debate:
1) Are homosexual relationships inherently harmful to the involved partners?
2) Is having parents of the same sex inherently harmful to children?

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boatsnguitars
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Re: Is homosexuality inherently harmful?

Post #21

Post by boatsnguitars »

mms20102 wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:40 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:07 am
mms20102 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:53 pm Yes homosexuals are supposed to hide their sexual preference as part of protecting children from early exposure to sexual acts.
Does holding hands, holding each other, or kissing count as sexual acts? I doubt you expect heterosexuals people to refrain from these things, so why should other people hid their sexual preference?
Well in many countries men and women each hug, kiss and hold hands, as part of greeting each other and it's considered as sexual acts because it's normal method of communication but for homosexuals kissing on the lips or sexual depiction of the acts is the problem so if this is changed as normal thing then yes it envolves sexual act.

No I expect heterosexual people to also refrain from these things if it includes mixed gender acts and my answer to your question is just said in your quote.
Are there other things you require of society, so you can live your life as you wish, regardless of their wishes? Is there anything else we can do for you?
Do you not want fat people to go to the beach? Do you want ugly people to wear a mask? Will you allow mixed-race couples to eat in restaurants?
I'm just curious because I want gay people to kiss in public and hold hands. Why are you trampling my rights?

In all honesty, you sound extremely prudish and sensitive to a degree that we don't really need to consider your feelings, since it seems you are under the impression that your offense of gay people should be adopted world-wide.

I think the real question is, What will you do as you see more and more gay and transgender people in your community? Because that's what's going to happen. It's not going away. It's not going to lessen. Seriously. It's going to be more common that transgender people teach in schools, work in your office, lead congregations, etc.

Whether you think that's right or not is inconsequential.

As for the OP:

Topics for debate:
1) Are homosexual relationships inherently harmful to the involved partners? No.
2) Is having parents of the same sex inherently harmful to children? No.

(BTW, I thought we were done with this debate. It was raging in the 90's with the lead-up to the "Gay Marriage Act", and it's very clear that most people are for Gay and Trans Rights, except for the few Conservative holdouts longing for a time when America was "Great" (trans and gay-phobic, racist, etc.)

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-l ... ights.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/393197/sam ... -high.aspx
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-tren ... er-issues/


BTW, I know a lesbian couple that fostered and adopted children - they are saints. Those children were abandoned by their straight parents. Many of the foster children were abused, even sexually, by their straight parents. To think the OP is still being asked in 2023 is absurd.
The only reason bigots (yes, I said it) ask if it's harmful to be gay or be raised in a same-sex home is because of bullying the Right Wing and Conservatives do. It's like if I punched a Conservative every time I saw one, and then argued "Hey, I just don't want people to be hurt! That's why you shouldn't be a Conservative!"
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Is homosexuality inherently harmful?

Post #22

Post by mms20102 »

boatsnguitars wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:28 am
mms20102 wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:40 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:07 am
mms20102 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:53 pm Yes homosexuals are supposed to hide their sexual preference as part of protecting children from early exposure to sexual acts.
Does holding hands, holding each other, or kissing count as sexual acts? I doubt you expect heterosexuals people to refrain from these things, so why should other people hid their sexual preference?
Well in many countries men and women each hug, kiss and hold hands, as part of greeting each other and it's considered as sexual acts because it's normal method of communication but for homosexuals kissing on the lips or sexual depiction of the acts is the problem so if this is changed as normal thing then yes it envolves sexual act.

No I expect heterosexual people to also refrain from these things if it includes mixed gender acts and my answer to your question is just said in your quote.
Are there other things you require of society, so you can live your life as you wish, regardless of their wishes? Is there anything else we can do for you?
Do you not want fat people to go to the beach? Do you want ugly people to wear a mask? Will you allow mixed-race couples to eat in restaurants?
I'm just curious because I want gay people to kiss in public and hold hands. Why are you trampling my rights?

In all honesty, you sound extremely prudish and sensitive to a degree that we don't really need to consider your feelings, since it seems you are under the impression that your offense of gay people should be adopted world-wide.

I think the real question is, What will you do as you see more and more gay and transgender people in your community? Because that's what's going to happen. It's not going away. It's not going to lessen. Seriously. It's going to be more common that transgender people teach in schools, work in your office, lead congregations, etc.

Whether you think that's right or not is inconsequential.

As for the OP:

Topics for debate:
1) Are homosexual relationships inherently harmful to the involved partners? No.
2) Is having parents of the same sex inherently harmful to children? No.

(BTW, I thought we were done with this debate. It was raging in the 90's with the lead-up to the "Gay Marriage Act", and it's very clear that most people are for Gay and Trans Rights, except for the few Conservative holdouts longing for a time when America was "Great" (trans and gay-phobic, racist, etc.)

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-l ... ights.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/393197/sam ... -high.aspx
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-tren ... er-issues/


BTW, I know a lesbian couple that fostered and adopted children - they are saints. Those children were abandoned by their straight parents. Many of the foster children were abused, even sexually, by their straight parents. To think the OP is still being asked in 2023 is absurd.
The only reason bigots (yes, I said it) ask if it's harmful to be gay or be raised in a same-sex home is because of bullying the Right Wing and Conservatives do. It's like if I punched a Conservative every time I saw one, and then argued "Hey, I just don't want people to be hurt! That's why you shouldn't be a Conservative!"
Just like most of the people defending homosexuality you are discussing my preferences other than why homosexuality is not wrong. And you simply lack any base to discuss. Does having a large number doing something makes it ok to be done?!.
For example Spain announced that beastiality is ok as long as animals are not harmed do you adopt the same idea?!.

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Re: Is homosexuality inherently harmful?

Post #23

Post by boatsnguitars »

mms20102 wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 6:46 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:28 am
mms20102 wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:40 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:07 am
mms20102 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:53 pm Yes homosexuals are supposed to hide their sexual preference as part of protecting children from early exposure to sexual acts.
Does holding hands, holding each other, or kissing count as sexual acts? I doubt you expect heterosexuals people to refrain from these things, so why should other people hid their sexual preference?
Well in many countries men and women each hug, kiss and hold hands, as part of greeting each other and it's considered as sexual acts because it's normal method of communication but for homosexuals kissing on the lips or sexual depiction of the acts is the problem so if this is changed as normal thing then yes it envolves sexual act.

No I expect heterosexual people to also refrain from these things if it includes mixed gender acts and my answer to your question is just said in your quote.
Are there other things you require of society, so you can live your life as you wish, regardless of their wishes? Is there anything else we can do for you?
Do you not want fat people to go to the beach? Do you want ugly people to wear a mask? Will you allow mixed-race couples to eat in restaurants?
I'm just curious because I want gay people to kiss in public and hold hands. Why are you trampling my rights?

In all honesty, you sound extremely prudish and sensitive to a degree that we don't really need to consider your feelings, since it seems you are under the impression that your offense of gay people should be adopted world-wide.

I think the real question is, What will you do as you see more and more gay and transgender people in your community? Because that's what's going to happen. It's not going away. It's not going to lessen. Seriously. It's going to be more common that transgender people teach in schools, work in your office, lead congregations, etc.

Whether you think that's right or not is inconsequential.

As for the OP:

Topics for debate:
1) Are homosexual relationships inherently harmful to the involved partners? No.
2) Is having parents of the same sex inherently harmful to children? No.

(BTW, I thought we were done with this debate. It was raging in the 90's with the lead-up to the "Gay Marriage Act", and it's very clear that most people are for Gay and Trans Rights, except for the few Conservative holdouts longing for a time when America was "Great" (trans and gay-phobic, racist, etc.)

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-l ... ights.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/393197/sam ... -high.aspx
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-tren ... er-issues/


BTW, I know a lesbian couple that fostered and adopted children - they are saints. Those children were abandoned by their straight parents. Many of the foster children were abused, even sexually, by their straight parents. To think the OP is still being asked in 2023 is absurd.
The only reason bigots (yes, I said it) ask if it's harmful to be gay or be raised in a same-sex home is because of bullying the Right Wing and Conservatives do. It's like if I punched a Conservative every time I saw one, and then argued "Hey, I just don't want people to be hurt! That's why you shouldn't be a Conservative!"
Just like most of the people defending homosexuality you are discussing my preferences other than why homosexuality is not wrong. And you simply lack any base to discuss. Does having a large number doing something makes it ok to be done?!.
For example Spain announced that beastiality is ok as long as animals are not harmed do you adopt the same idea?!.
Classic, you go to the beastiality route because you can't argue otherwise.

Let me be very clear: Can animals legally consent to their actions? No.
We are talking about consenting adults. Not animals, not kids - consenting adults.

And I bet you have heard this before so I have to wonder why you willfully ignore this?

Let's pause on this one item before we continue.

Do you agree there is a distinct, legal difference between adults, animals, and children? Can we at least get you to acknowledge this?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Is homosexuality inherently harmful?

Post #24

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #23]
Do you agree there is a distinct, legal difference between adults, animals, and children? Can we at least get you to acknowledge this?
If consent is standard to make thing right or wrong then all fetishes are morally right and viable as long as consent is all what you want ... Yet you didn't tell me is incest is considered normal also ?!

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Re: Is homosexuality inherently harmful?

Post #25

Post by boatsnguitars »

mms20102 wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 9:48 am [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #23]
Do you agree there is a distinct, legal difference between adults, animals, and children? Can we at least get you to acknowledge this?
If consent is standard to make thing right or wrong then all fetishes are morally right and viable as long as consent is all what you want ... Yet you didn't tell me is incest is considered normal also ?!
Who did Adam have sex with? But, let me ask you, what is the harm in incest if they use protection? I am personally against it, but I cant see a reason it would be objectively bad. It creeps me out, but I wouldn't think we need a law against it.

Or, do you think the government should be checking to see who everyone is having sex with? The republicans already want the government to know if any woman is pregnant if they go to the doctor (otherwise, how do they enforce the abortion ban?), maybe you want to go one further and install cameras in every house?

For the record, I think incest is creepy, as I said. It's also a bad idea if it results in a pregnancy. I take it you believe that a pregnancy from incest is just fine and should be carried to term. Or, do you believe a woman pregnant from incest should be allowed to abort the fetus?

But, I didn't hear you. Do you agree that consent between two adults is different than between one adult and a non-consenting Being? Let's see if you are here to discuss, or just vent.
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A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
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Re: Is homosexuality inherently harmful?

Post #26

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #25]

So based on your earlier reply you accept consent as the standard and you said that incest creeps you and guess what it creeps almost every normal person in this universe.
But you didn't tell me why it creeps you ?! If you accept that a father and daughter or a mother and son or a brother and sister have sex with consent what is the difference if they use protection or not ?!.
Is there a difference is between adult or non adult ?!
Yes the standard is not consent because consent can allow a woman cheat or a man cheat more over we will lose the family which is the fabric of any society.
Pleasures are not the standard to say something is right or wrong.
And with all what you said there is nothing said to support why being gay is something inherently right

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Re: Is homosexuality inherently harmful?

Post #27

Post by boatsnguitars »

mms20102 wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 1:30 pm [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #25]

So based on your earlier reply you accept consent as the standard and you said that incest creeps you and guess what it creeps almost every normal person in this universe.
But you didn't tell me why it creeps you ?! If you accept that a father and daughter or a mother and son or a brother and sister have sex with consent what is the difference if they use protection or not ?!.
Is there a difference is between adult or non adult ?!
Yes the standard is not consent because consent can allow a woman cheat or a man cheat more over we will lose the family which is the fabric of any society.
Pleasures are not the standard to say something is right or wrong.
And with all what you said there is nothing said to support why being gay is something inherently right
So, for the record, do you see why your examples of pedophilia and beastiality are wrong? Will you promise to not use them again?

But, the standard is consent. Consent does allow for cheating - but what you have raised is a woman-man relationship. I thought you were talking about the evils of homosexuality?
What does a single man consenting to have a loving relationship with another man have to do with cheating?
Or, are you suggesting pleasure has no role in a relationship?
Are you suggesting women shouldn't cheat on their abusive, absent husband who refuses to allow a divorce, but otherwise abandons or abuses her? Are you really that controlling of other people's lives?

Again, what else can we do for you? The world is obviously here to do what makes YOU comfortable.... What will you allow us to do! We wait with bated breath!

It creeps me out in the way that most people are creeped out about things. It's an "ick" factor. Like you feel when you see gay guys kissing. But you haven't made the case it's Objectively Morally Bad. I am not arguing it's morally good.

I don't need to defend homosexuality. It's self apparent. The only reason you think it isn't OK is because you chose a religion that has is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group when you were a teenager and feel you have to say it's wrong. If I chose a religion that taught me that the moon is flat, you wouldn't have to defend the proposition that it's round.

You go ahead and make your case why you hate the gays. We're all listening.
Last edited by boatsnguitars on Thu Mar 09, 2023 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is homosexuality inherently harmful?

Post #28

Post by JoeyKnothead »

mms20102 wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:33 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:11 pm
mms20102 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:53 pm I think someone don't know what is the meaning of debating so I will ignore big parts only because it's related to the debate.

I'm protecting my kids from being affected by a psychologically disordered people.
Yet you'd allow em to hang with folks who think a magic being roams the skies?
Yes homosexuals are supposed to hide their sexual preference as part of protecting children from early exposure to sexual acts.
It's quite telling that homosexuality has you so focused on the sexual aspect.

If ya cut em, do they not bleed?
What the magic being has to do with the topic we have here ?
I retract that bit, and add...

The vast majority of professionals in the professional field of professional psychology/ psychiatry reject calling homosexuality "disordered".

So it's important we protect folks from your disordered thinking.
the only difference between homosexuals and normal people is the sexual aspect.
So what? Would you be upset to find out about my vast collection of Chinese sadomasochistic furry lesbian midget porn?

At what point should we respect your disordered thinking?
Again where is the argument, or are we having an analysis session about what I think?
We're here to debate our thinking on various topics, so I don't know what the fuss is there.
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Re: Is homosexuality inherently harmful?

Post #29

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #28]

You said the ( vast majority said ) ....
Ok free lesson about logical debates

First you didn't present an evidence to support the statement

Second it's a logical fallacy to say it's right because the vast majority said ( Argumentum ad populum )

Third you are attacking my ideas instead of focusing on the topic which is another fallacy called ( Ad hominem )

Fourth I didn't ask you about what you do or have and the topic is not about it so why you need to tell us about it ?! that's actually another fallacy called ( Red herring )

Fifth we are here to debate the ideas and the topics said in the OP (logically) not debate our own ideas simply because our ideas don't present any weight in debating

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Re: Is homosexuality inherently harmful?

Post #30

Post by otseng »

boatsnguitars wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:43 pm you chose a bigoted religion
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