#1 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of knowing myself as a sinner

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#1 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of knowing myself as a sinner

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

Hi all,

I want to create a mini-series over time that can discuss/explore/debate the practical benefits of Christianity.

In this thread, I want to discuss: the practical benefits of knowing myself as a sinner.

For instance, knowing myself as a sinner means that I know that I would probably get addicted to drugs if I took them or that if I gambled I could become a gambler. So for me, a lot of things that have dark consequences still appeal to me like the false lights they are but I know I should flee sin, flee them because I know I would get caught up in them.

Does the Christian idea of being a sinner have practical benefits? Anyone want to discuss the down sides of knowing yourself as a sinner?

nb:
1- Please consider strong manning, Christianity and the topic concept if you intend to debate.
2- please argue with reasons
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: #1 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of knowing myself as a sinner

Post #11

Post by 1213 »

Wootah wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:34 pm
1213 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:50 am
Wootah wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:04 am ...
For instance, knowing myself as a sinner means that I know that I would probably get addicted to drugs if I took them or that if I gambled I could become a gambler. So for me, a lot of things that have dark consequences still appeal to me like the false lights they are but I know I should flee sin, flee them because I know I would get caught up in them.

Does the Christian idea of being a sinner have practical benefits?
Why do you think being weak means person is a sinner?
I don't think I used the word weak. I know as Christians we believe God works through our weakness/brokenness, God being the one that can make what I meant for evil, he can use for good. That might be another conversation.

Do you regard a gambler as a weak person? I think it is just a matter of 'there but for the grace of God go I'. I was watching the neuroscience of pornography which is closely related to addiction and to my understanding if I watch porn or gamble or social media then the same dopamine affect is triggered and it is just the way I am, same as them. So knowing myself as a sinner, or as a person with that dopamine feature I know to keep away.
Yes, you didn't use the word weak, but I think what you said implies it. If you think for example playing some game could easily lead you to become gambler, I think it means weakness. (Please notice, I don't think it is bad). I don't think that necessary means person is already sinner, or that the reason for it is that person is a sinner. At least I don't see any reason to think so. On the contrary, trying to avoid temptation can be seen as the opposite of sinner, in my opinion.

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Re: #1 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of knowing myself as a sinner

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

I don't propose to insert myself in this thread as it is more a doctrinal discussion, but there is a potential side - element (not explicit, here) of 'Christianity will help your problems'. as a selling -point for doubters. So just to put the unbeliever (potential) response, "Yes, there are social and personal issues and problems". But the answers to moral illness won't be found in the Bible or Christianity but in understanding what it is. Just as praying and sacrificing is not the answer to physical ills and problems (no matter how much the faithful might claim such) but in medical understanding and remedies.

Touching on the (potential) 'Good Things in the Bible'apologetic, yes, it can have a few inklings of morals and ethics, just as other human thinking, religious or not, can. An obvious example being the 'Golden Rule' which is sometimes wagged about as one of the sweetest teachings Christianity, but human Reciprocity is known from ancient Greece to China and indeed in Judaism, and not only does Christianity borrow it but it perverts it into a evangelical interference charter (1). The difference being like waving a dingo tail and puffing powders over a sick person and understanding what the medical condition is and doing medical treatment.

Bottom line, Religion is not the answer to social and personal ills, and is at best, an opiate for the symptoms. You can work out the worst for yourselves. So having put the Atheist position (I'm no paid or accredited spokesbod .of course, but feel free to Like, Subscribe and Contribute) that such discussion means nothing to us, I hand it back to you True Believers to dibble in the Doctrine.

(1) effectively 'I will not do to you what you don't want done' is changed into 'I will do to you what I would want done (i.e - Conversion) if I were in your shoes'.

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Re: #1 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of knowing myself as a sinner

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Post by Thomas123 »

Wootah OP:"Does the Christian idea of being a sinner have practical benefits"
...........................................
Explain all this to me,Please!

What is the essence of being a Christian sinner.

Is it different or unique in any slight way to ...normality(for instance)

Is a Christian sinner in ....'a different place' ,kinda?

Surely it is more than just an idea,W, ? Or maybe not.

Can you illuminate my enquiries with reasons so that I can engage with your subject ' properly'
Thanks!

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Re: #1 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of knowing myself as a sinner

Post #14

Post by Wootah »

Thomas123 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:11 pm Wootah OP:"Does the Christian idea of being a sinner have practical benefits"
...........................................
Explain all this to me,Please!

What is the essence of being a Christian sinner.

Is it different or unique in any slight way to ...normality(for instance)

Is a Christian sinner in ....'a different place' ,kinda?

Surely it is more than just an idea,W, ? Or maybe not.

Can you illuminate my enquiries with reasons so that I can engage with your subject ' properly'
Thanks!
A sinner is a person that is inadequate, to sin is to miss the mark.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/e2mediane ... -the-mark/

So if you accept that: then what mark was missed, what was the target, who is judging?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: #1 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of knowing myself as a sinner

Post #15

Post by JoeyKnothead »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:21 am I don't propose to insert myself in this thread as it is more a doctrinal discussion, but there is a potential side - element (not explicit, here) of 'Christianity will help your problems'. as a selling -point for doubters. So just to put the unbeliever (potential) response, "Yes, there are social and personal issues and problems". But the answers to moral illness won't be found in the Bible or Christianity but in understanding what it is. Just as praying and sacrificing is not the answer to physical ills and problems (no matter how much the faithful might claim such) but in medical understanding and remedies.

Touching on the (potential) 'Good Things in the Bible'apologetic, yes, it can have a few inklings of morals and ethics, just as other human thinking, religious or not, can. An obvious example being the 'Golden Rule' which is sometimes wagged about as one of the sweetest teachings Christianity, but human Reciprocity is known from ancient Greece to China and indeed in Judaism, and not only does Christianity borrow it but it perverts it into a evangelical interference charter (1). The difference being like waving a dingo tail and puffing powders over a sick person and understanding what the medical condition is and doing medical treatment.

Bottom line, Religion is not the answer to social and personal ills, and is at best, an opiate for the symptoms. You can work out the worst for yourselves. So having put the Atheist position (I'm no paid or accredited spokesbod .of course, but feel free to Like, Subscribe and Contribute) that such discussion means nothing to us, I hand it back to you True Believers to dibble in the Doctrine.

(1) effectively 'I will not do to you what you don't want done' is changed into 'I will do to you what I would want done (i.e - Conversion) if I were in your shoes'.
Excellent plot twist at the end.

Look at the Bible Belt for confirmation.
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Re: #1 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of knowing myself as a sinner

Post #16

Post by oldbadger »

Wootah wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:04 am Hi all,

I want to create a mini-series over time that can discuss/explore/debate the practical benefits of Christianity.

In this thread, I want to discuss: the practical benefits of knowing myself as a sinner.
OK......
For instance, knowing myself as a sinner means that I know that I would probably get addicted to drugs if I took them or that if I gambled I could become a gambler. So for me, a lot of things that have dark consequences still appeal to me like the false lights they are but I know I should flee sin, flee them because I know I would get caught up in them.
Any pagan can be aware of addictions.
Does the Christian idea of being a sinner have practical benefits? Anyone want to discuss the down sides of knowing yourself as a sinner?
The Christian idea of sin is a jumble of nonsense, imo.
Sin was simply the breaking of laws, any laws....... if there had been roads and vehicles after the Exodus, sin would have been committing a minor driving offence as well as murder....and breach of law was a sin. Christianity turned sin in to something else.
nb:
1- Please consider strong manning, Christianity and the topic concept if you intend to debate.
2- please argue with reasons
Strong manning? What ever is 'manning'?

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Re: #1 Practical Christianity: the practical benefits of knowing myself as a sinner

Post #17

Post by Purple Knight »

Wootah wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:04 amDoes the Christian idea of being a sinner have practical benefits? Anyone want to discuss the down sides of knowing yourself as a sinner?
Yes, but it's a double-edged sword.

We live in a garbage world and most people would benefit greatly from actually embracing the humility the Bible demands of them. Most people need to look at themselves and change, rather desperately.

The second edge is that when you've worked yourself to the bone changing and becoming a better person, you have to accept that you've done nothing and are no better than when you started because you're still a wicked sinner just like every other human being on the planet.

You can't better yourself because the you that exists after all the bettering is no better than the you at the start. If the starter you existed there in front of you, the type of humility the Bible asks would have you say, "I am no better than him," and being unable to better yourself is a hard pill to swallow.

Now, and again strongmanning, but I have indeed noticed that this doesn't seem daunting to Christians. They don't seem to realise that their efforts not to sin are worthless. So it's still practically effective despite the logical flaw that really should make people just give up. But it doesn't. Some people have overcome alcohol addiction with religion. Just because I can't understand it doesn't make it not work, and we are talking about practical benefits here, so if it works, it works. If it fails on one person, that's not important. Even if it fails on greater than 50% of people, that's not important because if that part of the religion bothers them they can find another or be atheists and the religion still has a practical benefit for the 30% (or whatever) that it does help.

It is only in the case that people daunted into apathy by the "You're a sinner no matter what," mantra stay in the church and continue to believe the religion that it's unhelpful, practically speaking. And frankly I don't think they do. I think if they find that to be unhelpful rubbish, they quit.

I would have a lot more to say in favour of Christianity in this regard if it gave a way to at least give yourself a little pat on the back if you really turn yourself around, but I do recognise that setting such a standard and having it apply equally to everyone would be a difficult construction to say the least. As far as practicality goes, if whipping everyone with the whole "you're a sinner" bit makes everyone work harder if they possibly can, then that's optimal, even if you're incidentally whipping some people who have already put in all effort humanly possible. Again, speaking practically, which is what this thread is about.

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