Question For The Atheist

[SacredBishop]

Atheism tends to confine religion to nothing more than a God to pray to and an afterlife to go to, but I'm curious about the need to wrestle with God. If you dislike the term substitute your own. Wrestling with religion, Wrestling with doubt, etc.

Psalm 22:1 " My God, my God, why have You forsaken me; why so far from helping me, and far from the words of my roaring?" There is a curious need people have to wrestle with God. This can be dismissed to the frustrations of unanswered prayer for sure, but not entirely. How does atheism account for the need to struggle with God? The desire for prayer and an afterlife is obvious enough, but the desire to confront God for the perceived absence of Himself. This is rather curious to me.

The hallmark of Christian poets, theologians, and critical thinkers as well, is not hallelujah, praised be God but rather where is God? Struggling with God in a world where He seems absent is the essence of most religious books, and seems to denote a need to wrestle with God, rather than a peculiar pitfall of spirituality in general.

Apologists seem to enjoy the battle more than defending their faith. If we reduce apologetics to nothing more than religion grappling with modern scrutiny then we have dismissed a vital part of being human. To argue. Apologists seem to get something out of their musings, which is beyond the scope of merely being relevant in modernity. They feel a need.

[SacredBishop]

Atheists have done well in explaining away people's desire to pray and have an afterlife. I'm just wanting their input on this as well. Obviously they don't believe in God, but they do believe that religious things have natural explanations. I'm seeking one of those kind of atheists, because I enjoy their intelligent input. I'll wait till one of them responds. I'm not going to reply to atheists only care about atheist things henceforth.

You've got the burden of proof backwards. If you claim humans have a need to wrestle with God, it is your duty to provide evidence that supports that claim.


Tcg

Yes, they're are atheists that consider religion irrelevant, and mock any conversation of it. I don't have to prove the rationale of why people are religious, I can only assume they feel a need to be religious. Such as people feel the need to be flippant contrarions on social media.

Daniel Dennet asserts religious people have a need to be religious. He speculates religion is like a parasite in the human psyche. Many atheist philosophers posit there is a perceived need to be religious and offer a wide range of fascinating explanations, as well as alternatives. Those particular atheists do not say a burden of proof is required to discuss this topic at all.

Again, and for the last time, yes, some atheists could care less about any of this. I am not attempting to engage which those particular atheists. They can fire off flippant off topics and avoid meaningful conversations altogether, but they need to realize that they don't represent atheist philosophers in general. Atheism is bigger and broader than that!

I've not stated anything flippant nor off topic in fact I have engaged the topic directly which is why I asked you to support the claim you are making. Do you care to do so? If you attempt it, we can then discuss whether your view has merit or not.


Tcg

Its not about whether my view has merit. Does Daniel Dennet and like minded atheist philosophers have merit, who assert that religious people have a need to be religious? My fellow atheists at my university concur that religious people feel a need to be religious. Does that need have merit? Maybe not. I'm not going to question whether the need is real or imagined, or has merit. I'm simply wondering why religious people have a need to wrestle with God. Perhaps, they are simply struggling with the absence of God, thus with atheism itself. Maybe they benefit from wrestling with religious thought in general. I don't know. Do you?

[Tcg]

Atheists have done well in explaining away people's desire to pray and have an afterlife. I'm just wanting their input on this as well. Obviously they don't believe in God, but they do believe that religious things have natural explanations. I'm seeking one of those kind of atheists, because I enjoy their intelligent input. I'll wait till one of them responds. I'm not going to reply to atheists only care about atheist things henceforth.

You've got the burden of proof backwards. If you claim humans have a need to wrestle with God, it is your duty to provide evidence that supports that claim.


Tcg

Yes, they're are atheists that consider religion irrelevant, and mock any conversation of it. I don't have to prove the rationale of why people are religious, I can only assume they feel a need to be religious. Such as people feel the need to be flippant contrarions on social media.

Daniel Dennet asserts religious people have a need to be religious. He speculates religion is like a parasite in the human psyche. Many atheist philosophers posit there is a perceived need to be religious and offer a wide range of fascinating explanations, as well as alternatives. Those particular atheists do not say a burden of proof is required to discuss this topic at all.

Again, and for the last time, yes, some atheists could care less about any of this. I am not attempting to engage which those particular atheists. They can fire off flippant off topics and avoid meaningful conversations altogether, but they need to realize that they don't represent atheist philosophers in general. Atheism is bigger and broader than that!

I've not stated anything flippant nor off topic in fact I have engaged the topic directly which is why I asked you to support the claim you are making. Do you care to do so? If you attempt it, we can then discuss whether your view has merit or not.


Tcg

I'm simply wondering why religious people have a need to wrestle with God.

You've yet to establish that they do. This is the roadblock we continue to hit.


Tcg

[SacredBishop]

[Replying to Tcg in post #12]

Psychology 101: Everything people do is based off a perceived need to actually do it. Some people say there's only illusion, but no actual perceived needs. Others say there's no perception of need, but simply a chemical response in the brain. That's not my cup of tea. You'll have to find somebody else for that, or create a separate topic for it.

I believe everything people do is based off a perceived need to actually do it. Whether its making flippant remarks for the sake of being contrary, or buying a new toaster. I'm curious why religious people do what they do. As I said, not all atheists are curious why religious people do what they do. You keep hammering that down, and I keep agreeing with it. Yes, not all atheists are interested in this, but many are. The burden of proof you keep demanding, whether some atheists are curious about religious things and try to account for them, is frankly a waste of my time.

[SacredBishop]

As already mentioned, most religious books are wrestling with the perceived absence of God. All religions devote a great deal to apologetics, especially in the 21st century. I'm simply curious about the need to do it. I called it wrestling with God. If you dislike the term substitute your own. Wrestling with religion. Wrestling with doubt. Wrestling with evidence to the contrary, whatever floats your boat. If your boat is simply being flippant, I'm not interested in floating it.

[PolytheistWitch]

Atheist care about discussing things like that with Christians about as much as Christians care about discussing things like this with non- Christians. Faith is personal, most don't want to know what your doing unless on a close enough path to try what your doing.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #12]


I believe everything people do is based off a perceived need to actually do it.

Now you are talking "perceived need." That is different from the "need" you were claiming earlier.

As I said, not all atheists are curious why religious people do what they do. You keep hammering that down, and I keep agreeing with it.

I've not even mentioned it much less "hammering that down."

Yes, not all atheists are interested in this, but many are. The burden of proof you keep demanding, whether some atheists are curious about religious things and try to account for them, is frankly a waste of my time.

I've not asked you to present evidence as to whether or not some atheists are curious about religious things. I've asked you to present evidence to support your claim that humans have a need to wrestle with God.


Tcg

[SacredBishop]

I'll put the question a different way. Does apologetics merely reflect religion grappling with itself in the face of 21st century scrutiny? Or does it satisfy a different need altogether? The former is religion trying to remain reasonable in modernity, the latter is something mysterious. By mysterious I mean, something that satisfies a need which is beyond the realm of being relevant. Apologists seem to enjoy the battle more than defending their faith. This is curious.

[SacredBishop]

[Replying to Tcg in post #12]


I believe everything people do is based off a perceived need to actually do it.

Now you are talking "perceived need." That is different from the "need" you were claiming earlier.

As I said, not all atheists are curious why religious people do what they do. You keep hammering that down, and I keep agreeing with it.

I've not even mentioned it much less "hammering that down."

Yes, not all atheists are interested in this, but many are. The burden of proof you keep demanding, whether some atheists are curious about religious things and try to account for them, is frankly a waste of my time.

I've not asked you to present evidence as to whether or not some atheists are curious about religious things. I've asked you to present evidence to support your claim that humans have a need to wrestle with God.


Tcg

No, I never said humans have the need. I said apologists have the need. Keep up.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #12]


I believe everything people do is based off a perceived need to actually do it.

Now you are talking "perceived need." That is different from the "need" you were claiming earlier.

As I said, not all atheists are curious why religious people do what they do. You keep hammering that down, and I keep agreeing with it.

I've not even mentioned it much less "hammering that down."

Yes, not all atheists are interested in this, but many are. The burden of proof you keep demanding, whether some atheists are curious about religious things and try to account for them, is frankly a waste of my time.

I've not asked you to present evidence as to whether or not some atheists are curious about religious things. I've asked you to present evidence to support your claim that humans have a need to wrestle with God.


Tcg

No, I never said humans have the need. I said apologists have the need. Keep up.

I have kept up that's why I know for a fact you claimed this:

There is a curious need people have to wrestle with God.

You are the poster using the ID "SacredBishop?"


Tcg

[Purple Knight]

I'll put the question a different way. Does apologetics merely reflect religion grappling with itself in the face of 21st century scrutiny? Or does it satisfy a different need altogether? The former is religion trying to remain reasonable in modernity, the latter is something mysterious. By mysterious I mean, something that satisfies a need which is beyond the realm of being relevant. Apologists seem to enjoy the battle more than defending their faith. This is curious.

As an atheist I desire it because I want to know if I'm wrong, and I can't imagine a luckier situation than a forum where religious people are allowed to say their peace and will give me all the evidence that they are actually correct, for free, even though I am very very unlikely to buy their product. This is something so good it should not exist in a capitalist world, and I'm very thankful that it does.

I will also admit that while I can justify my position on this rationally, it comes from somewhere deep and primal, and me thinking that if I look away from what frightens me, that's when it's going to get me.



It's also why I watch horrid things on YouTube such as parasites and worms in the eye and tapeworms in the brain and cutebras. I think if I don't look, it'll definitely get me.