Experiencing God - (An Instructional How-to)

[POI]

I have been given (yet another) way to apparently experience God. (i.e. viewtopic.php?t=39327&start=360):

"I am asking if you are willing to do it now. Rosary for 9 days in a row. You are being offered the chance to experience God."

********************************

In another thread (viewtopic.php?t=40313), I ultimately explained how I was a devout believer for decades. And yet, I never felt I experienced any contact from God. For years/decades, I tried all sorts of methods. I asked others, and sure enough, many would give me their anecdotal accounts. Above, is just another example of a way in which people have given me, over the years, to possibly experience god. But fear not, as the instructions are usually fail-safe. Meaning, if it still does not work, and one is not deemed a liar for not really trying, then the answer MUST INSTEAD BE that it is not yet God's will for that one to experience god. This, of course, begs other questions...

For Debate:

1) I have been given a 9-day-challenge. I will probably pass on trying it myself. Why? I have already been given all sorts of methods, which apparently also worked for the individuals giving the instructions, but not for me.

What is MOST likely (A, B, C, D)?

A) God communicates with some and not others?
B) God communicates with no one, because there is no such god, and some are merely experiencing self deception?
C) God communicates with everyone, but some people don't notice?
D) God exists, but either never has, and/or no longer, communicates with anyone?

I'm going with B).

2) Is anyone down to take this 9-day-challenge and tell me how it goes?

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

Do you need God to "communicate" with you to have faith in him?

As I stated, many times now.... I asked for God's contact, for decades, and nothing. Imagine if someone or something provided the promise of "communication", and after about 10K times of trying to do so, for decades, and in every which way imaginable, you never got it... Would you remain as "faithful"? If so, why?

Faith is at the foundation of belief in God... I dont think God communicating with you ought to be the foundation of any relationship with God.

I would not disagree with you there; in that 'faith' is key. I'd say the Bible writers were clever enough to realize this topic of faith would need to be required to believe such a story line.

But you can apply faith to any claim. And once you give any reason(s) to apply the faith to this god, but not another god, you start abandoning the very topic you claim you possess --- which is faith itself;) Why? For the reason, which is becoming a broken record, in my response(s) to you. (i.e.) The more evidence you obtain, the less you need/require faith.

1. So I ask, yet again, why apply faith to this claim, and not any other god claim(s)?

2. Why should I continue in faith, after 30+ years of trying with no success? Isn't this suggesting insanity?

[POI]

It's not about whether or not I like the message(s). It's the fact that I never felt any contact myself, even after decades of asking and trying. Thus, I now have my suspicions, as to whether or not anyone is really actually experiencing contact from any external agency at all?.?.?.?.?

Hence, maybe it's actually answer A), B), C), or D)? Is He skipping me, which would mean answer A)? Is He not real, and many are experiencing self deception B)? Am I too stupid to notice, which means God is not really trying to make me aware C)? God either no longer contacts anyone, or never has D)?

Answer B) seems to require the least amount of additional (ad hoc / post hoc) explanation(s).

If you have read the Bible, then you have had the message. I don't see any reason to think it would make any difference, if God would tell it directly to you.

I was going to give a similar response, but brunumb beat me to it -- (in post #30)

[Shem Yoshi]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

Do you need God to "communicate" with you to have faith in him?

As I stated, many times now.... I asked for God's contact, for decades, and nothing. Imagine if someone or something provided the promise of "communication", and after about 10K times of trying to do so, for decades, and in every which way imaginable, you never got it... Would you remain as "faithful"? If so, why?

Faith is at the foundation of belief in God... I dont think God communicating with you ought to be the foundation of any relationship with God.

I would not disagree with you there; in that 'faith' is key. I'd say the Bible writers were clever enough to realize this topic of faith would need to be required to believe such a story line.

But you can apply faith to any claim. And once you give any reason(s) to apply the faith to this god, but not another god, you start abandoning the very topic you claim you possess --- which is faith itself;) Why? For the reason, which is becoming a broken record, in my response(s) to you. (i.e.) The more evidence you obtain, the less you need/require faith.

1. So I ask, yet again, why apply faith to this claim, and not any other god claim(s)?

2. Why should I continue in faith, after 30+ years of trying with no success? Isn't this suggesting insanity?

Faith in God is a Christian virtue. You will not find faith in God in any other religion apart from the faith of Abraham that led to "Salvation is by grace through faith" (Romans), it is a Christian virtue. People just barrow the concept to mean different things then what it actually means, but there is no other religion in which you put faith into for salvation... There is nowhere else that teaches that... You can not have faith in other gods, it is cheap talk that disregards the ideas of "faith" and disregards the concepts of all other religions, that do not teach faith in God.

If you disagree you can make your case here
viewtopic.php?t=40417

[Shem Yoshi]

But you can apply faith to any claim.

You can not substantiate faith anywhere else. no where. It is rooted in Abraham and solidified in Christ..

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

Do you need God to "communicate" with you to have faith in him?

As I stated, many times now.... I asked for God's contact, for decades, and nothing. Imagine if someone or something provided the promise of "communication", and after about 10K times of trying to do so, for decades, and in every which way imaginable, you never got it... Would you remain as "faithful"? If so, why?

Faith is at the foundation of belief in God... I dont think God communicating with you ought to be the foundation of any relationship with God.

I would not disagree with you there; in that 'faith' is key. I'd say the Bible writers were clever enough to realize this topic of faith would need to be required to believe such a story line.

But you can apply faith to any claim. And once you give any reason(s) to apply the faith to this god, but not another god, you start abandoning the very topic you claim you possess --- which is faith itself;) Why? For the reason, which is becoming a broken record, in my response(s) to you. (i.e.) The more evidence you obtain, the less you need/require faith.

1. So I ask, yet again, why apply faith to this claim, and not any other god claim(s)?

2. Why should I continue in faith, after 30+ years of trying with no success? Isn't this suggesting insanity?

Faith in God is a Christian virtue. You will not find faith in God in any other religion apart from the faith of Abraham that led to "Salvation is by grace through faith" (Romans), it is a Christian virtue. People just barrow the concept to mean different things then what it actually means, but there is no other religion in which you put faith into for salvation... There is nowhere else that teaches that... You can not have faith in other gods, it is cheap talk that disregards the ideas of "faith" and disregards the concepts of all other religions, that do not teach faith in God.

If you disagree you can make your case here
viewtopic.php?t=40417

You did not really address my response. This seems to be becoming a common theme with you. I'll try again:

1. It's quite possible the Bible writers were clever enough to realize this entire belief system could not be substantiated, based upon evidence. Hence, they propped up "faith". Faith can be applied to ANY claim. So why not just apply faith to EVERY claim? Thus far, your only position seems to be that you view 'faith' as a virtue, based upon it saying so in the very book for which we are questioning. Your position could not be more circular. Thus, aside from the Bible telling you that you need faith, and also that faith is a virtue, why not apply faith to all god claims? Is it merely because their claims do not prop up the faith claim?

2. Why should I continue in faith, after 30+ years of trying to communicate with God, and no success? Isn't this suggesting insanity? Please remember, God apparently wants a relationship with me.

[POI]

But you can apply faith to any claim.

You can not substantiate faith anywhere else. no where. It is rooted in Abraham and solidified in Christ..

Once you 'substantiate' the faith, it is no longer faith

[The Barbarian]

Of the two choices, what is MORE likely between (A or B)?

A) God communicates with some and not others?
B) God communicates with no one, and some are merely experiencing self deception?

C) God communicates with everyone and some people don't notice.

Despite there being a third choice, if the God of the Bible is real I'm going to say A.

I believe we are made to look for the numinous; there seems to be such a dedicated structure in the brain.

“Our results suggest that spirituality and religiosity are rooted in fundamental, neurobiological dynamics and deeply woven into our neuro-fabric,” said corresponding author Michael Ferguson, PhD, a principal investigator in the Brigham’s Center for Brain Circuit Therapeutics. “We were astonished to find that this brain circuit for spirituality is centered in one of the most evolutionarily preserved structures in the brain.”

Biological Psychology
A Neural Circuit for Spirituality and Religiosity Derived From Patients With Brain Lesions
Abstract
Background
Over 80% of the global population consider themselves religious, with even more identifying as spiritual, but the neural substrates of spirituality and religiosity remain unresolved.
Methods
In two independent brain lesion datasets (N1 = 88; N2 = 105), we applied lesion network mapping to test whether lesion locations associated with spiritual and religious belief map to a specific human brain circuit.
Results
We found that brain lesions associated with self-reported spirituality map to a brain circuit centered on the periaqueductal gray. Intersection of lesion locations with this same circuit aligned with self-reported religiosity in an independent dataset and previous reports of lesions associated with hyper-religiosity. Lesion locations causing delusions and alien limb syndrome also intersected this circuit.
Conclusions
These findings suggest that spirituality and religiosity map to a common brain circuit centered on the periaqueductal gray, a brainstem region previously implicated in fear conditioning, pain modulation, and altruistic behavior.


Article here behind paywall:
https://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal ... 7/fulltext

[The Tanager]

If we're going to assume the Bible is true and applies to our reality, we can show this isn't the case by finding just one wicked person who genuinely does not know that what they are doing is wrong. You would have to say that in the case of conflict, there is never genuine moral disagreement and one side secretly knows it is wrong, every time. A good example is woke vs. racist. I don't think people on the racist side know they are wrong. I think they genuinely believe that privilege is meaningless, free speech should be protected, and individuals are only responsible for making up for things they actually did.

I don’t think this is true. People thinking they are right doesn’t mean they weren’t given reasons to see that they are wrong.

I seek answers constantly. I am here seeking them. I care about right and wrong more than anything, except maybe my loved ones, and I'm ashamed of that caveat. God absolutely does not talk to me unless you're going to say he does it through cryptic signs in the toaster marks of my breakfast pastry.

I definitely see that from you. I try to do the same. I’m not just talking about right and wrong, though. I think God talks to us about His existence through our rationality. This is open to everyone. I think God does talk to us about right and wrong, if we will reflect. This is open to everyone. I think He talks more to people once they believe in Him, but it’s all a process.

Instead of protecting the Israelites and allowing them to take other peoples' land (like Jericho) he could have just incarnated Jesus from any mother.

In the Bible God gives them the land of people who were doing many evil things, including sacrificing children to their gods. In the Bible, God also takes the land away from the Israelites because of their wickedness.

As to why incarnate so many years later, I don’t have a well thought out answer to that, but I don’t see that anything was necessarily lost by waiting. What do you see would be lost by not having it come sooner?

[The Tanager]

Quite a lot of claims to unpack there.... I trust you have debated many/most all of these claims already, to your own personal satisfaction with little bias?

I have thought and talked through these with many people, fellow Christians and non-Christians. As of now, I think theism makes the most sense. I think I’ll continue to talk through these the rest of my life. I try to do so with as little bias as possible. One can’t be an objective self-judge there, though.

Fun how the ones "communicating", did so in a rather organized/unified fashion. It's also funny how none where not really even doing anything, for which they could not have done completely on their own --- without any help from any external agency. But yea, I apparently saw thousands 'communicate'. And at the time, I also asked myself.... "Why do I not feel compelled to do any of these things?"

I definitely think there is empty parroting going on, as people want social acceptance and like to keep their social fences up, including Christians. This doesn’t mean all of them, using these methods, are empty communicators. As to why you didn’t feel compelled, I wouldn’t pretend to know.

How do you know you are not in self deception? How do you know you are not talking to yourself?

How could anyone know? The only things that can be known (meaning 100% certainty) are the things of pure mathematics and definitions, as far as I can tell. We should go with what makes the most sense to us. There are plenty of times where, if I’m talking to myself, I’m telling myself things I don’t want to hear and do, but end up glad I heard and did them. That’s possible. Or, it’s possible that God is talking to me. I think the evidence for God’s existence, Jesus’ resurrection, and the reliability of the Bible makes better sense of all of this versus atheism or belief in a different God.

[POI]

POI -- How do you know you are not in self deception? How do you know you are not talking to yourself?

Tanager -- How could anyone know? The only things that can be known (meaning 100% certainty) are the things of pure mathematics and definitions, as far as I can tell. We should go with what makes the most sense to us. There are plenty of times where, if I’m talking to myself, I’m telling myself things I don’t want to hear and do, but end up glad I heard and did them. That’s possible. Or, it’s possible that God is talking to me. I think the evidence for God’s existence, Jesus’ resurrection, and the reliability of the Bible makes better sense of all of this versus atheism or belief in a different God.

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Above looks to remain the crux of this thread. Here is where you and I diverge greatly. I may jump back in here and [edit] this response. But I would first like to let is marinate for a while