Other Gods are Real

[Purple Knight]

Question for Debate: Is there room in the Christian faith to believe other gods are real if not worship them?

Doesn't the First Commandment imply other gods are real since it says not to worship them? Nothing about them not existing. Just, don't worship them. I understand this is a negative implication based on what was not said and thus not airtight but it reads like it would have been worded differently if there were no other gods.

Wouldn't this solve the dilemma that people often put to Christians? The dilemma is that Christianity has an effectively 0% chance of being true since there are a lot of religions and a lot of gods and any of them might exist. That's solved if you say they all might exist.

And doesn't the Catechism warn against black magic? I can't think the God of the Bible put black magic into the physical world and empowers people who use it to do more harm to people who don't. To be a good play on his part it would have to be a serious temptation, which it can't be since most people don't think it's real. Other than being a temptation, I can't see a point to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_magic

Unless I'm wrong the common thread here is: It's real, but don't do it it's evil. So my point is a good one that the only valid reason to put black magic on Earth is as a temptation, and it doesn't function as that with so much disbelief. In fact it's likely to backfire, causing good people who are not out to do anyone any harm to actually earn punishment when they put a real spell on somebody when they were only trying to act it out as a catharsis. (Though this may simply lend credence to the idea that if you act something out, you are, in a way, doing it, and it merits punishment anyway.)

[1213]

For example some people made a golden calf and kept it as their god. I have no doubt such thing can exist. It just should not be kept as ones God.

But is the golden calf regarded as the god or merely a point of focus for worshiping the actual god? Millions of people bob up and down crossing themselves before statues of Jesus, Mary, crucifixes and so on. Do they regard those objects as their god?

That should be asked from those who do it. I think it is wrong to make any image of god, or to bow at any man made image.

[Clownboat]

For example some people made a golden calf and kept it as their god. I have no doubt such thing can exist. It just should not be kept as ones God.

But is the golden calf regarded as the god or merely a point of focus for worshiping the actual god? Millions of people bob up and down crossing themselves before statues of Jesus, Mary, crucifixes and so on. Do they regard those objects as their god?

That should be asked from those who do it. I think it is wrong to make any image of god, or to bow at any man made image.

The statues (Jesus/Mary) are not the God itself, nor are they the thing being worshipped. You know this, but seem to want to pretend that the Israelites were just worshiping a statue of a cow and not an equally valid god concept.

[Difflugia]

...
How is that different than the wisdom, love, and knowledge He shows through a golden calf?

What is the wisdom, or words of the calf?

That's not an answer to my question.

[JoeyKnothead]

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How is that different than the wisdom, love, and knowledge He shows through a golden calf?

What is the wisdom, or words of the calf?

Where God says "Me", the calf says "Moo".

Funny thing about worship - those most demanding of it, are the least worthy.

[JehovahsWitness]

Question for Debate: Is there room in the Christian faith to believe other gods are real if not worship them?

If by gods you mean powerful intelligent individuals and/or superior lifeforms then yes, the Christian faith allows for the acceptance of many "gods" .




JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Difflugia]

If by gods you mean powerful intelligent individuals and/or superior lifeforms then yes, the Christian faith allows for the acceptance of many "gods" .

How about those that can overcome the power of Jehovah when offered a human sacrifice like Chemosh?

[Purple Knight]

Since the Bible has stories in it and rules to live by, and a golden calf is just an idol, there's at least a basis here to choose one and not the other.

That basis is nothing more than perspective, but it's been presented as self-evident. To flip your statement, dancing around golden calves provides a conduit to the Holy Spirit in ways that can't be accomplished by a mere printed page.

You can dance around the Bible if you want to. Something that contains rules is objectively superior to something that doesn't. (If the rules are clear, anyway.)

I'm speaking from experience. Even bad rules are better than no rules. No rules is just the tyranny of the charismatic. Even one clear rule, and even the absolute worst rule in the world, gives every single person rights they would not otherwise have.

Let's try to construct the absolute most unfavourable rule to me we can.

"Purple Knight does not have rights and anyone may do whatever they wish to him."

This rule is much more favourable to me than none at all. I have actually been in situations where someone charismatic will try to use the idea that I have rights to hurt someone. Billy may break my leg. Sandy may beat me to a pulp. But when Cindy is clearly play-fighting with me, she'll be punished because now, since they want to punish Cindy, hitting is always wrong no matter what. With this rule I can stand up for Cindy, which I would not have been able to do with no clear rules. Even the worst and most unfavourable rule you can construct, gives me rights I would not otherwise have. I will select this rule over no rules, if I have a choice. Same goes for any clear rule.

If by gods you mean powerful intelligent individuals and/or superior lifeforms then yes, the Christian faith allows for the acceptance of many "gods" .

How about those that can overcome the power of Jehovah when offered a human sacrifice like Chemosh?

This is going to be a hard stick of black licorice to chew through. You would have to say that the real God allows Chemosh's power to work in the same way he allows human hands to construct hammers and either hammer nails with them or bash heads with them. There's an argument that he has to let people do evil or we wouldn't know what evil was. Imagine if the power of a hammer was stopped from working every time someone tried to hurt someone else, and likewise every power. We probably wouldn't know right from wrong. The lesson would have to be the same: You can sacrifice your son to Chemosh, just like you can bash someone's head with a hammer, but you shouldn't. IMO this gets into murkier waters than just the hammer, mainly because one of these other gods might promise an afterlife.

For me this remains crystal clear because it's not about reward but if people are sitting in Valhalla who earned their way in by doing evil, you're going to lose most people. And by the same token that the Valhalla thing does not bother me, the fact that God offers a final reward at all, does bother me. If I was going to be a Christian I would be a weird one, and follow the rules but not ask Jesus to forgive anything so all my good deeds can be clear of being mere tricks a dog does to get a treat.

[1213]

...
How is that different than the wisdom, love, and knowledge He shows through a golden calf?

What is the wisdom, or words of the calf?

Where God says "Me", the calf says "Moo".

Funny thing about worship - those most demanding of it, are the least worthy.

I have never heard a golden calf saying anything. But, do you think Bible God demands worship? Why?

[1213]

...
How is that different than the wisdom, love, and knowledge He shows through a golden calf?

What is the wisdom, or words of the calf?

That's not an answer to my question.

How can I say the difference, if you don't tell what wisdom comes from the calf?

[1213]

For example some people made a golden calf and kept it as their god. I have no doubt such thing can exist. It just should not be kept as ones God.

But is the golden calf regarded as the god or merely a point of focus for worshiping the actual god? Millions of people bob up and down crossing themselves before statues of Jesus, Mary, crucifixes and so on. Do they regard those objects as their god?

That should be asked from those who do it. I think it is wrong to make any image of god, or to bow at any man made image.

The statues (Jesus/Mary) are not the God itself, nor are they the thing being worshipped. You know this, but seem to want to pretend that the Israelites were just worshiping a statue of a cow and not an equally valid god concept.

Is there any reason to think they were actually worshiping something else than the calf? By what i remember, Bible tells they kept the golden calf as their god, not something through the golden calf.

And if people don't actually worship the statue or image, why have the image at all?