Other Gods are Real

[Purple Knight]

Question for Debate: Is there room in the Christian faith to believe other gods are real if not worship them?

Doesn't the First Commandment imply other gods are real since it says not to worship them? Nothing about them not existing. Just, don't worship them. I understand this is a negative implication based on what was not said and thus not airtight but it reads like it would have been worded differently if there were no other gods.

Wouldn't this solve the dilemma that people often put to Christians? The dilemma is that Christianity has an effectively 0% chance of being true since there are a lot of religions and a lot of gods and any of them might exist. That's solved if you say they all might exist.

And doesn't the Catechism warn against black magic? I can't think the God of the Bible put black magic into the physical world and empowers people who use it to do more harm to people who don't. To be a good play on his part it would have to be a serious temptation, which it can't be since most people don't think it's real. Other than being a temptation, I can't see a point to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_magic

Unless I'm wrong the common thread here is: It's real, but don't do it it's evil. So my point is a good one that the only valid reason to put black magic on Earth is as a temptation, and it doesn't function as that with so much disbelief. In fact it's likely to backfire, causing good people who are not out to do anyone any harm to actually earn punishment when they put a real spell on somebody when they were only trying to act it out as a catharsis. (Though this may simply lend credence to the idea that if you act something out, you are, in a way, doing it, and it merits punishment anyway.)

[Difflugia]

How can I say the difference, if you don't tell what wisdom comes from the calf?

That's exactly my point. You claimed earlier that you prefer the Bible as your idol "because of the wisdom, knowledge and love" in it as opposed to what's in a golden calf, but now you apparently can't tell the difference.

[JoeyKnothead]

...
How is that different than the wisdom, love, and knowledge He shows through a golden calf?

What is the wisdom, or words of the calf?

Where God says "Me", the calf says "Moo".

Funny thing about worship - those most demanding of it, are the least worthy.

I have never heard a golden calf saying anything. But, do you think Bible God demands worship? Why?

That whole believe or burn deal comes to mind.

[1213]

How can I say the difference, if you don't tell what wisdom comes from the calf?

That's exactly my point. You claimed earlier that you prefer the Bible as your idol "because of the wisdom, knowledge and love" in it as opposed to what's in a golden calf, but now you apparently can't tell the difference.

I don't think Bible is my idol. But, apparently my question was not clear enough. I wanted to ask, has the calf said something? What has it said? If it has not said anything, I don't think it can be said some wisdom comes from it.

[1213]

...
That whole believe or burn deal comes to mind.

Can you say where is that in the Bible and why do you think it means God demands worshiping?

[Difflugia]

I don't think Bible is my idol. But, apparently my question was not clear enough.

It was absolutely clear. It was a completely transparent attempt to deflect from the question I asked you.

I wanted to ask, has the calf said something? What has it said? If it has not said anything, I don't think it can be said some wisdom comes from it.

I don't think anyone (including you) said that wisdom "comes from" either the calf or the Bible, but from Yahweh. You said that He "shows" His wisdom through your preferred idol, but not through a golden calf as though that's obviously true. When one worships with the aid of any idol, the idol serves as a focus or a conduit for Yahweh's power and gifts, including things like love and wisdom. You now seem to be implying that you need the words written for you, even though it's questionable whether the words themselves originated with any god, let alone Yahweh. If you don't feel the wisdom manifesting within yourself through Yahweh's presence within the calf, then perhaps you simply lack the faith to perceive what a more attuned worshipper would receive through Yahweh's immanent presence within the calf.

To mildly rephrase my original question, how have you determined that whatever wisdom you have received from the Bible in whatever fashion is greater than that which a truly faithful worshipper enjoys from worshipping Yahweh through His divine golden calf?

[1213]

...
I don't think anyone (including you) said that wisdom "comes from".... ...You said that He "shows" His wisdom through ...

And, "wisdom comes through the Bible" means, God's message is written in the Bible and that way one can know what God says. A calf doesn't say or write anything, so it has no message.

[Clownboat]

Is there any reason to think they were actually worshiping something else than the calf?

The reason was supplied and you missed it.
Copy/paste: "The statues (Jesus/Mary) are not the God itself, nor are they the thing being worshipped. You know this, but seem to want to pretend that the Israelites were just worshiping a statue of a cow and not an equally valid god concept."

And if people don't actually worship the statue or image, why have the image at all?

It's something to focus on. Are Catholics actually worshiping Mary with their statues? Is that what you really think the purpose of Mary statues are for? Surely you don't think this.

[JehovahsWitness]

... Millions of people bob up and down crossing themselves before statues of Jesus, Mary, crucifixes and so on. Do they regard those objects as their god?

Scripturally it is irrelevant; biblically the 2nd of the Ten Commandement shows how God feels about the use of idols.

EXODUS 20: 4, 5a

You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath. You shall not bow down to them or worship them

By prohibiting the Israelites from making idols or bowing to them it is evident that whether one is simply has one in their home as decoration, uses an idol as a focus for prayer, or believes it channels God's power, it is the possession and or the use of an idol that is displeasing to God. In short, showing religious veneration for an image, statue, symbol of anything in worship is condemned in scripture.

1 CORINTHIANS 10:14

Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry

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GOD, IDOLS and ....WORSHIP

[Difflugia]

Scripturally it is irrelevant; biblically the 2nd of the Ten Commandement shows how God feels about the use of idols.

So does Numbers 21:8-9:

And Jehovah said unto Moses, "Make yourself a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." And Moses made a serpent of brass, and set it upon the standard: and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked unto the serpent of brass, he lived.

[1213]

Is there any reason to think they were actually worshiping something else than the calf?

The reason was supplied and you missed it.
Copy/paste: "The statues (Jesus/Mary) are not the God itself, nor are they the thing being worshipped. You know this, but seem to want to pretend that the Israelites were just worshiping a statue of a cow and not an equally valid god concept."

Sorry, I have no reason to believe they actually worship something else. How can you even say so?

Are Catholics actually worshiping Mary with their statues? Is that what you really think the purpose of Mary statues are for? Surely you don't think this.

I don't see any other reason for that. If they want to worship God, they should for example do this:

Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
James 1:27