Other Gods are Real

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Purple Knight
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Other Gods are Real

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

Question for Debate: Is there room in the Christian faith to believe other gods are real if not worship them?

Doesn't the First Commandment imply other gods are real since it says not to worship them? Nothing about them not existing. Just, don't worship them. I understand this is a negative implication based on what was not said and thus not airtight but it reads like it would have been worded differently if there were no other gods.

Wouldn't this solve the dilemma that people often put to Christians? The dilemma is that Christianity has an effectively 0% chance of being true since there are a lot of religions and a lot of gods and any of them might exist. That's solved if you say they all might exist.

And doesn't the Catechism warn against black magic? I can't think the God of the Bible put black magic into the physical world and empowers people who use it to do more harm to people who don't. To be a good play on his part it would have to be a serious temptation, which it can't be since most people don't think it's real. Other than being a temptation, I can't see a point to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_magic

Unless I'm wrong the common thread here is: It's real, but don't do it it's evil. So my point is a good one that the only valid reason to put black magic on Earth is as a temptation, and it doesn't function as that with so much disbelief. In fact it's likely to backfire, causing good people who are not out to do anyone any harm to actually earn punishment when they put a real spell on somebody when they were only trying to act it out as a catharsis. (Though this may simply lend credence to the idea that if you act something out, you are, in a way, doing it, and it merits punishment anyway.)

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Re: Other Gods are Real

Post #2

Post by Miles »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:49 pm Question for Debate: Is there room in the Christian faith to believe other gods are real if not worship them?
If Christians believe the Bible is true then I believe they would have to accept the reality of the gods it mentions. Just consider:

"The idea that there are other “gods” who exist as real supernatural beings, albeit infinitely inferior to the only Creator and Redeemer, pervades the Bible. The Psalms fairly explode with evidence. “There is none like you among the gods, O Lord” (86:8); “For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; he is to be revered above all gods” (96:4); “Our Lord is above all gods” (135:5); “Ascribe to Yahweh, [you] gods, ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength” (29:1, my trans.); “He is exalted above all gods” (97:7); “For Yahweh is a great god, and a great king above all gods” (95:3, my trans.). And so on.

But it’s not just the Psalms. In Exodus Yahweh predicts that he will execute judgments “on all the gods of Egypt” (12:12). The author of Numbers then declares that that is indeed what happened: “Yahweh executed judgments against their gods” (33:4). There is no hint that Yahweh is the only God. Instead it is clearly implied that Egypt has her own gods, and Yahweh will defeat them.

In Deuteronomy 4:19 the Israelites are forbidden from worshipping “the sun, the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven . . . [which] Yahweh your god has allotted to all the peoples everywhere under heaven.” In other words, they were told not to worship other gods, not because those gods did not exist, but because they were supposed to rule other peoples, not Israel."
source

And the naming of gods other than Yahweh.


Isaiah 65:11
“But you who abandon (turn away from) the Lord, Who forget and ignore My holy mountain (Zion), Who set a table for Gad [the Babylonian god of fortune], And who fill a jug of mixed wine for Meni [the god of fate],

2 Kings 19:37
And as he was worshiping in the house of Nisroch his god, Adrammelech and Sharezer, his sons, struck him down with the sword and escaped into the land of Ararat. And Esarhaddon his son reigned in his place.

1 Kings 18:20-21
20 So Ahab called all the Israelites and those prophets to Mount Carmel. 21 Elijah came to all the people and said, “You must decide what you are going to do. How long will you keep jumping from one side to the other? If the Lord is the true God, follow him. But if Baal is the true God, then follow him!”



If they didn't exist why would the Bible bother to mention them? It wouldn't.

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Re: Other Gods are Real

Post #3

Post by tigger 2 »

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

God and gods

The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 clearly recognizes the truth about the lesser meaning of theos and elohim ('a god'):

"In the language of the OT ... rulers and judges, as deputies of the heavenly King, could be given the honorific title ‘god’ ... or be called ‘son of God’.” - footnote for Ps. 82:1.
And, in the footnote for Ps. 45:6, this trinitarian study Bible tells us: “In this psalm, which praises the [Israelite] king ..., it is not unthinkable that he was called ‘god’ as a title of honor (cf. Isa. 9:6).”

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, tells us:
“The reason why judges are called ‘gods’ in Ps. 82 is that they have the office of administering God’s judgment as ‘sons of the Most High’. In context of the Ps. the men in question have failed to do this.... On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the role of a true judge as a ‘god’ and ‘son of the Most High’.” - Vol. 3, p. 187.

The highly respected (and highly trinitarian) W. E. Vine tells us:
“The word [theos, ‘god’ or ‘God’] is used of Divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, John 10:34” - p. 491, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, Eerdmans, 1978 Reprint, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation”:

“65. GOD - is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. - Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 21:6; 22:8, 9;...Ps. 8:5; 45:6; 82:1, 6; 97:7, 9...John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28....”

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Abingdon, 1974 printing,
“430. [elohim]. el-o-heem’; plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plur. thus, esp. with the art.) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, ... x (very) great, judges, x mighty.” - p. 12, “Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary.”

The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43:
Elohim: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.... b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels.... c. angels Ps. 97 7 ...”

Some of these (mostly) trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods include:

1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;
2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;
3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133 (angels, judges), Tyndale House Publ., 1984;
4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208 (angels, judges), Bethany House Publ., 1982;
5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;
6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;
7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;
8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; and p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; and Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7; 82:1; Jn 10:34; 1970 ed.;
11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;
12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;
13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, (angels, judges, kings) Baker Book House, 1992;
14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;
15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);
16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);
17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);
18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);
19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).
20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.
21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.
22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.
23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.
24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.
25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.
26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.
27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.
28. Pastor Jon Courson, The Gospel According to John.
29. Vincent’s New Testament Word Studies, John 10:36.
30. C. J. Ellicott, John 10:34, Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers.
(Also John 10:34, 35 - CEV; TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV)

And, of course, the highly respected and highly popular Hellenic Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for “God”/“a god” about the same time the NT was written.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen (see DEF note #1) and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus (p. 9, DEF study); the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.”

All of this shows the scriptural understanding (as well as the same understanding by Christian writers of the first centuries) of “god” as applied to angels and certain men who were trying to follow God or who were representatives or ambassadors for God. Just because it sounds strange to our modern ears is no reason to ignore the facts. And no reason to take advantage of that fact by falsely claiming that only two understandings of the words theos and elohim are possible: “God” and “false gods” - see the TRUE study.

The words elohim and theos are simply titles or descriptions (like “lord”) signifying more than usual power, might, and/or authority, etc. It may be applied on many levels. But when it is applied on the highest (“Most High”) level, it is understood in an exclusive sense: there is no other individual that is even remotely equal to this one. This does not mean that the same title, description is not used for lesser ones. To distinguish, when there could be confusion, the Most High God will usually be described as “the god” (ha elohim, Heb. or ho theos, Gk.) which, when translated into modern English will be distinguished by a capital letter (“God”) since in our idiom we seldom use the definite article with “God.” - see DEF or PRIMER studies.

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Re: Other Gods are Real

Post #4

Post by Miles »

tigger 2 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:46 pm [Replying to Miles in post #2]

God and gods

The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 clearly recognizes the truth about the lesser meaning of theos and elohim ('a god'):

"In the language of the OT ... rulers and judges, as deputies of the heavenly King, could be given the honorific title ‘god’ ... or be called ‘son of God’.” - footnote for Ps. 82:1.
And, in the footnote for Ps. 45:6, this trinitarian study Bible tells us: “In this psalm, which praises the [Israelite] king ..., it is not unthinkable that he was called ‘god’ as a title of honor (cf. Isa. 9:6).”

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, tells us:
“The reason why judges are called ‘gods’ in Ps. 82 is that they have the office of administering God’s judgment as ‘sons of the Most High’. In context of the Ps. the men in question have failed to do this.... On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the role of a true judge as a ‘god’ and ‘son of the Most High’.” - Vol. 3, p. 187.

The highly respected (and highly trinitarian) W. E. Vine tells us:
“The word [theos, ‘god’ or ‘God’] is used of Divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, John 10:34” - p. 491, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, Eerdmans, 1978 Reprint, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation”:

“65. GOD - is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. - Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 21:6; 22:8, 9;...Ps. 8:5; 45:6; 82:1, 6; 97:7, 9...John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28....”

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Abingdon, 1974 printing,
“430. [elohim]. el-o-heem’; plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plur. thus, esp. with the art.) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, ... x (very) great, judges, x mighty.” - p. 12, “Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary.”

The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43:
Elohim: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.... b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels.... c. angels Ps. 97 7 ...”

Some of these (mostly) trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods include:

1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;
2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;
3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133 (angels, judges), Tyndale House Publ., 1984;
4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208 (angels, judges), Bethany House Publ., 1982;
5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;
6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;
7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;
8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; and p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; and Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7; 82:1; Jn 10:34; 1970 ed.;
11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;
12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;
13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, (angels, judges, kings) Baker Book House, 1992;
14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;
15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);
16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);
17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);
18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);
19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).
20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.
21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.
22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.
23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.
24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.
25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.
26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.
27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.
28. Pastor Jon Courson, The Gospel According to John.
29. Vincent’s New Testament Word Studies, John 10:36.
30. C. J. Ellicott, John 10:34, Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers.
(Also John 10:34, 35 - CEV; TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV)

And, of course, the highly respected and highly popular Hellenic Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for “God”/“a god” about the same time the NT was written.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen (see DEF note #1) and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus (p. 9, DEF study); the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.”

All of this shows the scriptural understanding (as well as the same understanding by Christian writers of the first centuries) of “god” as applied to angels and certain men who were trying to follow God or who were representatives or ambassadors for God. Just because it sounds strange to our modern ears is no reason to ignore the facts. And no reason to take advantage of that fact by falsely claiming that only two understandings of the words theos and elohim are possible: “God” and “false gods” - see the TRUE study.

The words elohim and theos are simply titles or descriptions (like “lord”) signifying more than usual power, might, and/or authority, etc. It may be applied on many levels. But when it is applied on the highest (“Most High”) level, it is understood in an exclusive sense: there is no other individual that is even remotely equal to this one. This does not mean that the same title, description is not used for lesser ones. To distinguish, when there could be confusion, the Most High God will usually be described as “the god” (ha elohim, Heb. or ho theos, Gk.) which, when translated into modern English will be distinguished by a capital letter (“God”) since in our idiom we seldom use the definite article with “God.” - see DEF or PRIMER studies.
As I recall reading, and recently checked myself, Hebrew, the language the Old Testament was written in, does not contain lower case or upper case letters, AND in Koine Greek, the language the New Testament was originally written in, "capital letters are used at the beginning of paragraphs, sentences (depending on publisher), proper names, and the beginning of quotations.* ("god" is not a proper name). So any capitalized "god" outside these rules would have to be a later concoction added into translations, most likely to make scripture conform to some theological agenda of the translator or his employer (the church). So, go ahead and make up whatever significance you care to, in the end it's meaningless.

*source

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Re: Other Gods are Real

Post #5

Post by PolytheistWitch »

The Bible can certainly refer to other gods without actually acknowledging their existence. Obviously the God of Abraham is the god of the Jews. So he's basically saying in order for you to be one of my people you can't worship these "gods" that are not me. That doesn't mean that those gods exist just that the practice of worshiping those gods exist.
Which is what makes the worship of Christ basically as un- God of Abraham as possible.

I can't tell you as a hard polytheist, someone who believes all the gods are distinct and individual beings, I have no problem believing the God of Abraham exist but, he's a regional deity specific to the Jewish culture just like the Greco-Roman gods are to Greece and Rome and the Norse gods are to Scandinavia.

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Re: Other Gods are Real

Post #6

Post by Miles »

PolytheistWitch wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:56 pm The Bible can certainly refer to other gods without actually acknowledging their existence.
So, what do you think the following scriptures do; simply refer to other gods or acknowledge their existence?


“There is none like you among the gods, O Lord”
Think the writer of Psalms would bother to compare Yahweh to fictional gods?
I don't

“For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; he is to be revered above all gods”
Think the writer of Psalms would bother to compare Yahweh to fictional gods?
I don't

Our Lord is above all gods” Think the writer of Psalms would bother to compare Yahweh to fictional gods?
I don't

“Ascribe to Yahweh, [you] gods, ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength” Think the writer of Psalms would speak to fictional gods?
I don't

He is exalted above all gods. Think the writer of Psalms would bother to compare Yahweh to fictional gods?
I don't

“For Yahweh is a great god, and a great king above all gods. Think the writer of Psalms would bother to compare Yahweh to fictional gods?
I don't

“Yahweh executed judgments against their gods”
Think the writer of Exodus would describe Yahweh as bothering to judge fictional gods?
I don't

(Source: post #2)

Obviously the God of Abraham is the god of the Jews. So he's basically saying in order for you to be one of my people you can't worship these "gods" that are not me. That doesn't mean that those gods exist just that the practice of worshiping those gods exist.
So he's basically saying, "I care that it's a cardboard god you worship instead of me." Considering god's other personality quirks, like the overwhelming desire to be worshiped, while other gods are spurned. His pitiful jealousy, and his insistence on being glorified and praised, all speaking to a needy personality that one would think an all powerful god could dump in a nanosecond, perhaps you're right. The omnipotent, omniscient, god of Jews and Christians doesn't have it all together at all, but struggles with his needs just like the man on the street.

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Re: Other Gods are Real

Post #7

Post by PolytheistWitch »

[Replying to Miles in post #6]
The omnipotent, omniscient, god of Jews and Christians doesn't have it all together at all, but struggles with his needs just like the man on the street.
If he's either of those things and yes, just like every other god. Hard pressed to find myths that don't at least view a lot of the gods this way. Well not all of them are like that certainly the most seem to be.

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Re: Other Gods are Real

Post #8

Post by 1213 »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:49 pm Question for Debate: Is there room in the Christian faith to believe other gods are real if not worship them?

Doesn't the First Commandment imply other gods are real since it says not to worship them? Nothing about them not existing. Just, don't worship them. I understand this is a negative implication based on what was not said and thus not airtight but it reads like it would have been worded differently if there were no other gods.

Wouldn't this solve the dilemma that people often put to Christians? The dilemma is that Christianity has an effectively 0% chance of being true since there are a lot of religions and a lot of gods and any of them might exist. That's solved if you say they all might exist.
...
Yes, I think so. The question about existence is not crucial. It is possible that other gods exists. Christians just should not keep them as their God.

For though there are things that are called “gods,” whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords;” yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Cor. 8:5-6

For example some people made a golden calf and kept it as their god. I have no doubt such thing can exist. It just should not be kept as ones God.

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Re: Other Gods are Real

Post #9

Post by Clownboat »

1213 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:59 am Yes, I think so. The question about existence is not crucial. It is possible that other gods exists. Christians just should not keep them as their God.

For though there are things that are called “gods,” whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords;” yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Cor. 8:5-6

For example some people made a golden calf and kept it as their god. I have no doubt such thing can exist. It just should not be kept as ones God.
A golden calf can be shown to be real. Whats your god concept got in comparison? What's the justification for rejecting the calf while accepting the Hebrew god as being real?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

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Re: Other Gods are Real

Post #10

Post by Purple Knight »

Clownboat wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:40 pmWhat's the justification for rejecting the calf while accepting the Hebrew god as being real?
If other gods are real it's up to personal choice and you can pick any.

It solves the dilemma people often put to Christians that they're incredibly unlikely to have picked the "right" religion, which they open themselves up to by having their religion state that all others are false. Now other religions have equal bearing to make the same claim and when you factor in sects and minor takes on specific things, you're less likely to win than you are to win the lottery.

If all or even most of it is real and you want an afterlife, just pick one that gives you an afterlife you like. I might pick the Viking religion because then I get to go to Valhalla if I die in battle. I'm not likely to but if I do, I get to be among others willing to fight for what they believed in, even if what they believed in might be diametrically opposed to what I believed in, and the idea that we can all eat at the same table as friends because the ideal mattered not so much as being willing to defend it, appeals to me. If you don't like the idea of an afterlife and want to live over and over until you attain perfection and dissolve into the universe, Hinduism would be a good choice. I like this one too.

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