Did Christianity lose its way?

[oldbadger]

The Abrahamic God explained how success could be won by keeping exactly to his laws, his way.
But as the Israelites fell away from these so the prophets came to restore order.
In Isaiah's time the land was corrupted and lawless and he called a restoration of law and order.
When the Baptist came his appearance was answering Isaiah's call.
When Jesus appeared he called for a return of the law but without the need for all those priesthood backhanders within the system of sacrifices.

So where did Christianity get all it's amazing ideas from......... ?

Here are just a small selection of verses from the bible to show a continuous message......... the laws............which Christianity then mangled, in my opinion.

GENESIS {18:19} For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

EXODUS{18:19} Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

DEUTERONOMY {5:33} Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and [that it may be] well with you, and [that] ye may prolong [your] days in the land which ye shall possess. {6:1} Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments,

SAMUEL {22:22} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {22:23} For all his judgments [were] before me: and [as for] his statutes,

PSALMS {18:21} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {18:22} For all his judgments [were] before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.

ISAIAH {40:3} The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. {40:4} Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Matthew {3:3} For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Mark {1:3} The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke {3:4} As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Matthew {11:12} And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. {11:13} For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. {11:14} And if ye will receive [it,] this is Elias, which was for to come. {11:15} He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew {21:32} For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it,] repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Matthew {7:12} Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

[JehovahsWitness]

... he [Jesus] wished to do away with a corrupted Priesthood...

Please clarify: Are you suggesting

a) Jesus wanted an end to religious corruption (to which I agree) Or that ...
b) Jesus called for an end the the Levitical PRIESTHOOD itself (and the temple sacrifices)?

[oldbadger]

A NEW LAW

An end to the Mosaic law is a teaching from the Hebrew bible as Jeremiah prophecied there would be a NEW law ( obvously necessitating the end of the "old").

JEREMIAH 31:31, 32a

Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant.+ 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers ...

A promised MESSIAH, who would presumably have a message from their God, is an idea profoundly rooted in the fundamental teachings of the Torah. The only fly in the ointment is the messages he brought were not quite what they were expecting.



JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

BIBLICAL LAW, THE MOSAIC LAW COVENANT and ...THE ABRAHAMIC CONVENANT

Jeremiah, like Isaiah, was most sad the the people had turned away from the law and lost the way and so many verses can show this, such as:-
Jeremiah {6:19} Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, [even] the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Jeremiah {9:13} And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;

Jeremiah {16:11} Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;

And like Isaiah he called for an adjustment of the laws, the way to success, but for the Jewish people:-

Jeremiah {31:31} Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: {31:32} Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: {31:33} But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And that is what the Baptist and Jesus called for, but certainly not to throw it all away....

Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Christianity chucked hundreds of good laws away ..........

[oldbadger]

Neither the word, nor the concept of the TRINITY is even mentioned, let alone discussed, by Paul, or any of the gospel accounts of the teachings of Christ. Even those that hold to the teaching admit it took centuries to "develop".

"The New Testament contains no explicit trinitarian doctrine." - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

It's all there, but I have no interest in the Trinity, nor in Paul who never mentioned anything that Jesus said or did apart from during a last meal and last hours.

But Paul mentioned all three quite often:-
Such as:-
Romans {5:1} Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace ]with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:[/b] {5:2} By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. {5:3} And not only [so,] but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that
tribulation worketh patience; {5:4} And patience, experience; and experience, hope: {5:5} And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

And nowhere did Paul support the calls of the prophets, Baptist or Jesus for a return of law, albeit with redactions concerning the Priesthood and Temple,.

[oldbadger]

..................
Hi oldbadger, I have never debated directly against you before, but your efforts here become more disingenuous by the second.

Why did you 'doctor', the silly and flirtatious post?

What 'Laws' did God give Adam?
Thanks

I reduce posts to those sentences that I am answering.
Calling my OP flirtatious just seemed weird because you never did explain why you thought that. How...odd?

Now, back to the Laws of God, let's take a very few verses which show continuous and connected verses which refer to them, from Exodus all the way to Jesus, and nearly all dumped by Christianity........ can you find any of these few that you don't think are support for the old laws?

It's true that some prophets wanted adjustments, and Jesus certainly wanted to redact the sacrificial ones, but why did Christianity dump so many others?


LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

DEUTERONOMY {5:33} Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and [that it may be] well with you, and [that] ye may prolong [your] days in the land which ye shall possess. {6:1} Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments,

PSALMS {18:21} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {18:22} For all his judgments [were] before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.

ISAIAH {40:3} The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. {40:4} Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Matthew {3:3} For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Mark {1:3} The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Matthew {11:12} And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. {11:13} For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. {11:14} And if ye will receive [it,] this is Elias, which was for to come. {11:15} He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[oldbadger]

... he [Jesus] wished to do away with a corrupted Priesthood...

Please clarify: Are you suggesting

a) Jesus wanted an end to religious corruption (to which I agree) Or that ...
b) Jesus called for an end the the Levitical PRIESTHOOD itself (and the temple sacrifices)?

Just look at what Jesus said and what he did:-

On the Monday after 'Palm Sunday' he and his wrecked the money and animal bazaars and picketed the Temple courts!

He said:-
Matthew {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

and did:-
Mark {11:11} And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve...........next day ...............]{11:15} And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
{11:16} And would not suffer that any man should carry [any] vessel through the temple.

..and he said:-
Mark {11:17} And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

and the next day... all over again.....
Mark {11:27} And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, {11:28} And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?

He was even happy for the Temple to be ended.......... if you need me to show you that then please just ask.

[Thomas123]

oldbadger: 'Now, back to the Laws of God.....'

Thomas123: Hi oldbadger, it is your prerogative to conduct your debate as you see fit.
I have asked you two questions so far.

1.Where did the Abrahamic God come from.
Answer: No idea!
2.What laws did God give Adam?
Answer: No Answer?

You work away ,oldbadger, and good luck!

[JehovahsWitness]

Jeremiah, like Isaiah, was most sad the the people had turned away from the law [...] And like Isaiah he called for an adjustment of the laws...And that is what the Baptist and Jesus called for

Please produce a single scripture where Jesus or ANY of the Prophets "called for an adjustment of the laws" .

• The Prophets called the people to return to the Law and repent of their sins in breaking the laws and Jesus in particular spoke out against the religious corruption in his day, but NONE of them, including Jesus ever "called for an adjustment of the laws"

JW

[oldbadger]

oldbadger: 'Now, back to the Laws of God.....'

Thomas123: Hi oldbadger, it is your prerogative to conduct your debate as you see fit.
I have asked you two questions so far.

1.Where did the Abrahamic God come from.
Answer: No idea!
2.What laws did God give Adam?
Answer: No Answer?

You work away ,oldbadger, and good luck!

Hello Thomas.
I don't take part in interrogations Thomas
If you want to answer the OP then answer it.
Christianity swerved far away from the missions of the prophets and Jesus, and you were shown so many verses which show a clear continuity of purpose....until it was left by Christianity .

If you would like to say something then that would be fine, otherwise .....see ya later!

[Diogenes]

Yes, Christianity has lost its way. My basis for this declaration is the movement back to tribalism and the desire of some to return to a theocracy. Jesus of Nazareth stands out from most religious figures in that he represented a departure from tribal religion to universal; from a religion representing the Hebrew tribes, to one that includes all people.

We can see this in Jesus preaching that the law can be summarized as loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself. Another example is the Beatitudes where Jesus focuses on spiritual things, on attitude vs meticulous devotion to the minutiae of rituals. He preached the spirit of the law as opposed to the literal. We see this in his parables and answers to the Pharisees. In response to their complaints about his disciples 'working' on the Sabbath because they picked heads of grain while walking thru the fields. He reminded them “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”

He taught that all men, no matter from what tribe, are our neighbors. He jokes and tests the Canaanite woman by saying “It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”*
When she shows faith by returning his joke, "Even the dogs get the scraps from the table," he praises her faith and heels her daughter even tho' she is not an Israelite.

Unfortunately today too many Christians seem more concerned about whether you are a Jehovah's Witness, or LDS, or Baptist, Pentecostal, Anglican or Roman Catholic, then they are about following Jesus and loving all.
Too many Christians today worship the Golden Calf of the prosperity gospel or the engage in idol worship of a political leader. Their emphasis has become on rules, on being anti abortion, or smoking or drinking, or on excluding LGBTQ folks or anyone who does not fit into a traditional binary sexual identity. Too many Christians have lost their way by wanting to impose their personal interpretation of the Bible and "God's Laws" in fine detail, rather than simply love their neighbors and give aid to the poor and homeless.

To the extent Christians have followed this path, Christianity has lost its way.

__________________________
*"Dog" being a common epithet for a gentile

[tam]

Peace to you,

Christ is HIMSELF the WAY (I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.)

The law is not the way.

Religion is not the way.

Men are not the way.

The bible is not the way.

Christ is the Way.

As to something Christ said about the law:

[Replying to oldbadger in post #1]

Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Do you see the connection? It is in the bold.

Christ came to fulfill the law. Did He or did He not do this?


With that answer in mind, read the second statement in the bold.


**


I am reminded in the spirit that Gentiles were never under the law covenant to begin with. The law (from the law covenant) would not have applied to gentile (non-Israelite) Christians.



(please note that I am not suggesting that Christianity the religion and all its sects - are from Christ. Religion is not the same thing as faith. The former is an institutional organization; the latter is a gift, a knowing, believing IN Christ and God.) .



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy