Questions about Jesus and JW’s

[MissKate13]

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.

When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?

I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.

MissKate13

[MissKate13]

Does this forum have a block or ignore feature?

Click on the user's name to open the user's profile. On that page, click Add foe. You then won't see the text of their comments unless you explicitly want to.

Thank you so much Difflugia! Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #341]

"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (Psalm 53:1)

I've flagged your post. You're literally calling me a fool. Rude.

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

See you in Hell.

I don't think anyone can be disciplined that is quoting the Bible! If you want to take it personally then so be it. Anyway, you are not my spiritual brother.

Seems your Bible says differently. Again, see you in Hell.

2 Thessalonians 3:15
Do not regard him as an enemy, but keep admonishing him as a [believing] brother.

“The Christian must treat his enemy as a brother, and requite his hostility with love. His behavior must be determined not by the way others treat him, but by the treatment he himself receives from Jesus; it has only one source, and that is the will of Jesus.”
― Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship


Mods: So, I'm curious though, can I call him an idiot? A moron? A tool? What insults are we allowed? Can we only quote religious texts to insult each other?

[William]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #352]

Can we only quote religious texts to insult each other?

This is a topic all of its own, and a thread dedicated to debating the question, is recommended.

Some thing that it is okay to do so, if "The Bible" say's it, since that is believed to be the word of "GOD".

[JehovahsWitness]

Peter referred to Jesus Christ as “our God and Savior!

DOES PETER CALL JESUS OUR GOD AND SAVIOUR?

2PETER 1:1 NKJV

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

While some bible translations render the verses in a way that suggests they refer to one individual, one should be careful not to abuse the so-alled "sharps rule". Indeed in discussing Rev. 2:8; 2:2 .Kermit Titrud offers the following "modification" to the Granville Sharp rule stating: "If the first substantive has an article and the second does not, the second refers to the same person or thing as the first unless the context suggests otherwise." - D.A. Black's (Ed.) Linguistics and NT Interpretation pp. 249-250

Since the very next verse distinguished beween the two reading in the New King James Version, the contextnof Peters openjng words lends to the above rule.

2PETER 1:1 NKJV

Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord

Further while Sharp did not clearly exclude proper names from the rule’s application, a close examination of his monograph reveals that he felt the rule could be applied absolutely only to personal, singular, non-proper nouns. (For more on this point see the commentary "Sharp Redivivus? - A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule" https://bible.org/article/sharp-rediviv ... sharp-rule )[/indent]



AND CHRIST OR AND [OF] CHRIST?

Given the above, there is no grammatical basis to object to translating the Greek in a similar way to the English "Our King and country". While it shoulld be understood, (even without saying) that the KING is not the The Country, for clarity we can change the word order or add a word such as the possesive pronoun (our). For example the KING JAMES VERSION reads :

2 PETER 1:1

....like precious faith with us through the righteousnessof God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Other translations highlight that two different individuals are being referred to by adding the preposition "of" (as one might in "A subject of King and [of] country") note the following translations ...

VARIOUS OTHER TRANSLATIONS

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ - American Standard Version

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ - Webster's Bible Translation

Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.- Weymouth New Testament

CONCLUSION It is grammatically dubious to insist that the writer of Peter was suggesting Jesus was God in the above passage. Two indivisuals are spoken of only one of which is being revered to as God. The most one can say is the expression is somewhat ambiguous and we need to look to the wider context of Peter's writing to for a definitive conclusion. An investiagtion which clearly points two individuals, Jesus being different from YHWH God

[JehovahsWitness]

Paul wrote that we should be looking for the appearing of our great God and Savior, who gave Himself for us.

DOES PAUL CALL JESUS OUR GOD AND SAVIOUR?

TITUS 2:13 NKJV

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

TITUS 2:13 - DOUAY-RHEIMS

Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

While some bible translations render the verses in a way that suggests they refer to one individual, one should be careful not to abuse the so-alled "sharps rule". Indeed in discussing Rev. 2:8; 2:2 .Kermit Titrud offers the following "modification" to the Granville Sharp rule stating: "If the first substantive has an article and the second does not, the second refers to the same person or thing as the first unless the context suggests otherwise." - D.A. Black's (Ed.) Linguistics and NT Interpretation pp. 249-250



Since the letter to Titus offers little by way of context to build a definitive case either way, we are obliged to look to the wider context of Pauls writings. The Greater context of Paul's letters was kindly pointed out in an earlier post by Onewithim.

....Notice the greetings that Paul sends to various congregations:

Colossians: "We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you." (Col. 1:3)

Philippians: "May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ." (Phil.1:2)

Ephesians: "May you have grace and peace from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ. Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (Eph.1:2,3)

I could go on, but suffice it to say, the Father (YHWH) and Jesus are always spoken of separately, and when "God" is mentioned it is always the Father, not Christ.

Further while Sharp did not clearly exclude proper names from the rule’s application, a close examination of his monograph reveals that he felt the rule could be applied absolutely only to personal, singular, non-proper nouns. (For more on thisnpoint see the commentary "Sharp Redivivus? - A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule" https://bible.org/article/sharp-rediviv ... sharp-rule )[/indent]



AND CHRIST OR AND [OF] CHRIST?

Given the above, there is no grammatical basis to object to translating the Greek in a similar way to the English "Our King and country". While it shoulld be understood, (even without saying) that the KING is not the The Vountry, for clarity we can change the word order or add a word such as the possesive pronoun (our). For example the KING JAMES VERSION reads :

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - King James Version

Arguably the word order, even without adding a comma after Saviour, implies a description of two rather than one individual. Other translations highlight that two different individuals are being referred to by adding the preposition "of" (as one might in "A subject of King and [of] country") note the following translations ...

VARIOUS OTHER TRANSLATIONS

lokynge for þe blessed hope & appearinge of the glory of the greate God, & of oure sauioure Iesu Christ, - The Great Bible

Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ, - Geneva

lokinge for that blessed hope and glorious apperenge of ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ - Tyndale

awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus, - Moffatt

looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, - Sawyer

as we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus - New American Bible - 1970

as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ - New American Bible - 1991

while we wait for the blessed thing we hope for, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ - A New Translation in Plain English - Charles K. Williams

And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour . - Phillips

Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ. - GNV

"looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ," - NMB

As we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ - New American Bible - 2010

CONCLUSION It is grammatically dubious to insist that Paul (the writer of Titus) was suggesting Jesus was God in the above passage. Two indivisuals are spoken of only one of which is being revered to as God. The most one can say is the expression is somewhat ambiguous and we need to look to the wider context of Paul's writing to for a definitive conclusion

Further Reading
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... -rule.html
viewtopic.php?p=1115284#p1115284


Sharps Rule
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... ts-on.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -rule.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -some.html



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To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JESUS CHRIST , PRE-HUMAN EXISTENCE and ... THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

[JehovahsWitness]

Duplicate

[MissKate13]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #354]

I don’t read cut & paste responses or links.

[otseng]

I don't think anyone can be disciplined that is quoting the Bible! If you want to take it personally then so be it. Anyway, you are not my spiritual brother.

Moderator Comment

Depends on the intent. If you're using it to support an argument, not a problem. If you're using it to make an indirect comment about someone else, it's not allowed.


Please review the Rules.





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[JehovahsWitness]

DOES THE FATHER (YHWH) CALL HIS SON GOD? [HEBREWS 1:8]

HEBREWS 1: 8 NKJV

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ...

According to Greek scholars, the original Greek construction of Heb. 1:8 is somewhat ambiguous and can legitimately be rendered in various ways. The Greek for Hebrews 1:8 literally reads as follows

Toward [but] the SON the throne of you the GOD into the age of the age

Source: http://www.abarim-publications.com/Inte ... 63in-S-if0

Note the following commentaries:

It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: "God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339

"Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate. - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation

Although the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely understanding because Paul is making a direct quotation of Psalms 45 verse 6, 7 which is renderd by various bible as follows :

Your throne is from God, for ever and ever - Jerusalem Bible

Your divine throne is eternal and everlasting. Your royal scepter is a scepter of justice - Common English Bible

If we understand Paul to be quoting Psalms 45 to show Jesus' authority or kingdom power comes from God, this would be in harmony with the gospel narrative (see Matt 28:18, Rev 3:21)

THUS VARIOUS TRANSLATION RENDER HEBREWS 1:8



source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE

But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness - New World Translation

but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice - Christian Standard Bible

But, as for the Son, he says: "God is your throne for ever and for ever, and the sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom - William Barclay's Daily study Bible

For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... eb-18.html




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[MissKate13]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #359]

More cut & paste. More links. I don’t read either.