1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).
Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?
2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.
When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?
I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.
MissKate13
Questions about Jesus and JW’s
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Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #1”For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24
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Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #351Thank you so much Difflugia! Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.
”For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24
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Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #352Seems your Bible says differently. Again, see you in Hell.onewithhim wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:40 amI don't think anyone can be disciplined that is quoting the Bible! If you want to take it personally then so be it. Anyway, you are not my spiritual brother.boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:11 amI've flagged your post. You're literally calling me a fool. Rude.onewithhim wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:04 pm [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #341]
"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (Psalm 53:1)
Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
See you in Hell.
2 Thessalonians 3:15
Do not regard him as an enemy, but keep admonishing him as a [believing] brother.
“The Christian must treat his enemy as a brother, and requite his hostility with love. His behavior must be determined not by the way others treat him, but by the treatment he himself receives from Jesus; it has only one source, and that is the will of Jesus.”
― Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
Mods: So, I'm curious though, can I call him an idiot? A moron? A tool? What insults are we allowed? Can we only quote religious texts to insult each other?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
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Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #353[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #352]
Some thing that it is okay to do so, if "The Bible" say's it, since that is believed to be the word of "GOD".
This is a topic all of its own, and a thread dedicated to debating the question, is recommended.Can we only quote religious texts to insult each other?
Some thing that it is okay to do so, if "The Bible" say's it, since that is believed to be the word of "GOD".
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Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #354DOES PETER CALL JESUS OUR GOD AND SAVIOUR?
2PETER 1:1 NKJV
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
While some bible translations render the verses in a way that suggests they refer to one individual, one should be careful not to abuse the so-alled "sharps rule". Indeed in discussing Rev. 2:8; 2:2 .Kermit Titrud offers the following "modification" to the Granville Sharp rule stating: "If the first substantive has an article and the second does not, the second refers to the same person or thing as the first unless the context suggests otherwise." - D.A. Black's (Ed.) Linguistics and NT Interpretation pp. 249-250
Since the very next verse distinguished beween the two reading in the New King James Version, the contextnof Peters openjng words lends to the above rule.
2PETER 1:1 NKJV
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord
Further while Sharp did not clearly exclude proper names from the rule’s application, a close examination of his monograph reveals that he felt the rule could be applied absolutely only to personal, singular, non-proper nouns. (For more on this point see the commentary "Sharp Redivivus? - A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule" https://bible.org/article/sharp-rediviv ... sharp-rule )[/indent]
AND CHRIST OR AND [OF] CHRIST?
Given the above, there is no grammatical basis to object to translating the Greek in a similar way to the English "Our King and country". While it shoulld be understood, (even without saying) that the KING is not the The Country, for clarity we can change the word order or add a word such as the possesive pronoun (our). For example the KING JAMES VERSION reads :
Other translations highlight that two different individuals are being referred to by adding the preposition "of" (as one might in "A subject of King and [of] country") note the following translations ...2 PETER 1:1
....like precious faith with us through the righteousnessof God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
VARIOUS OTHER TRANSLATIONS
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ - American Standard Version
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ - Webster's Bible Translation
Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.- Weymouth New Testament
CONCLUSION It is grammatically dubious to insist that the writer of Peter was suggesting Jesus was God in the above passage. Two indivisuals are spoken of only one of which is being revered to as God. The most one can say is the expression is somewhat ambiguous and we need to look to the wider context of Peter's writing to for a definitive conclusion. An investiagtion which clearly points two individuals, Jesus being different from YHWH God
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #355DOES PAUL CALL JESUS OUR GOD AND SAVIOUR?MissKate13 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:23 am
Paul wrote that we should be looking for the appearing of our great God and Savior, who gave Himself for us.
TITUS 2:13 NKJV
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
TITUS 2:13 - DOUAY-RHEIMS
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
While some bible translations render the verses in a way that suggests they refer to one individual, one should be careful not to abuse the so-alled "sharps rule". Indeed in discussing Rev. 2:8; 2:2 .Kermit Titrud offers the following "modification" to the Granville Sharp rule stating: "If the first substantive has an article and the second does not, the second refers to the same person or thing as the first unless the context suggests otherwise." - D.A. Black's (Ed.) Linguistics and NT Interpretation pp. 249-250
Since the letter to Titus offers little by way of context to build a definitive case either way, we are obliged to look to the wider context of Pauls writings. The Greater context of Paul's letters was kindly pointed out in an earlier post by Onewithim.
Further while Sharp did not clearly exclude proper names from the rule’s application, a close examination of his monograph reveals that he felt the rule could be applied absolutely only to personal, singular, non-proper nouns. (For more on thisnpoint see the commentary "Sharp Redivivus? - A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule" https://bible.org/article/sharp-rediviv ... sharp-rule )[/indent]onewithhim wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:55 am....Notice the greetings that Paul sends to various congregations:
Colossians: "We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you." (Col. 1:3)
Philippians: "May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ." (Phil.1:2)
Ephesians: "May you have grace and peace from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ. Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (Eph.1:2,3)
I could go on, but suffice it to say, the Father (YHWH) and Jesus are always spoken of separately, and when "God" is mentioned it is always the Father, not Christ.
AND CHRIST OR AND [OF] CHRIST?
Given the above, there is no grammatical basis to object to translating the Greek in a similar way to the English "Our King and country". While it shoulld be understood, (even without saying) that the KING is not the The Vountry, for clarity we can change the word order or add a word such as the possesive pronoun (our). For example the KING JAMES VERSION reads :
Arguably the word order, even without adding a comma after Saviour, implies a description of two rather than one individual. Other translations highlight that two different individuals are being referred to by adding the preposition "of" (as one might in "A subject of King and [of] country") note the following translations ..."Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - King James Version
VARIOUS OTHER TRANSLATIONS
lokynge for þe blessed hope & appearinge of the glory of the greate God, & of oure sauioure Iesu Christ, - The Great Bible
Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ, - Geneva
lokinge for that blessed hope and glorious apperenge of ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ - Tyndale
awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus, - Moffatt
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, - Sawyer
as we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus - New American Bible - 1970
as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ - New American Bible - 1991
while we wait for the blessed thing we hope for, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ - A New Translation in Plain English - Charles K. Williams
And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour . - Phillips
Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ. - GNV
"looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ," - NMB
As we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ - New American Bible - 2010
CONCLUSION It is grammatically dubious to insist that Paul (the writer of Titus) was suggesting Jesus was God in the above passage. Two indivisuals are spoken of only one of which is being revered to as God. The most one can say is the expression is somewhat ambiguous and we need to look to the wider context of Paul's writing to for a definitive conclusion
Further Reading
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... -rule.html
viewtopic.php?p=1115284#p1115284
Sharps Rule
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... ts-on.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -rule.html
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -some.html
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To learn more please go to other posts related to...
JESUS CHRIST , PRE-HUMAN EXISTENCE and ... THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:46 am, edited 5 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #356Duplicate
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #357”For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24
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Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #358Moderator Commentonewithhim wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:40 am I don't think anyone can be disciplined that is quoting the Bible! If you want to take it personally then so be it. Anyway, you are not my spiritual brother.
Depends on the intent. If you're using it to support an argument, not a problem. If you're using it to make an indirect comment about someone else, it's not allowed.
Please review the Rules.
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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
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Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #359DOES THE FATHER (YHWH) CALL HIS SON GOD? [HEBREWS 1:8]
Source: http://www.abarim-publications.com/Inte ... 63in-S-if0
Note the following commentaries:
Although the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely understanding because Paul is making a direct quotation of Psalms 45 verse 6, 7 which is renderd by various bible as follows :
THUS VARIOUS TRANSLATION RENDER HEBREWS 1:8
source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE
For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... eb-18.html
RELATED POSTS
According to Greek scholars, the original Greek construction of Heb. 1:8 is somewhat ambiguous and can legitimately be rendered in various ways. The Greek for Hebrews 1:8 literally reads as followsHEBREWS 1: 8 NKJV
But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ...
Toward [but] the SON the throne of you the GOD into the age of the age
Source: http://www.abarim-publications.com/Inte ... 63in-S-if0
Note the following commentaries:
It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: "God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339
"Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate. - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation
Although the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely understanding because Paul is making a direct quotation of Psalms 45 verse 6, 7 which is renderd by various bible as follows :
Your throne is from God, for ever and ever - Jerusalem Bible
If we understand Paul to be quoting Psalms 45 to show Jesus' authority or kingdom power comes from God, this would be in harmony with the gospel narrative (see Matt 28:18, Rev 3:21)Your divine throne is eternal and everlasting. Your royal scepter is a scepter of justice - Common English Bible
THUS VARIOUS TRANSLATION RENDER HEBREWS 1:8
source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE
But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness - New World Translation
but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of justice - Christian Standard Bible
But, as for the Son, he says: "God is your throne for ever and for ever, and the sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom - William Barclay's Daily study Bible
For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... eb-18.html
RELATED POSTS
Does Paul call Jesus "our God and Savior" [Titus 2:13]?
viewtopic.php?p=1115120#p1115120
Does YHWH call the son "God"[2 Peter 1:1]?
viewtopic.php?p=1115127#p1115127
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:17 pm, edited 7 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Questions about Jesus and JW’s
Post #360”For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24