Questions about Jesus and JW’s

[MissKate13]

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.

When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?

I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.

MissKate13

[JehovahsWitness]

ALL THINGS OR ALL OTHER THINGS

The word “thing” is not in the original language, The KI has it in brackets, and they use it in their English translation as all translations do to make the verse more understandable.

As highlighted above all translation add words to their translations that are not in the original text. As long as this does not change the meaning from the writers evident intent this is not only acceptable it is desirable as it makes the verse more understandable in the target language.


DID PAUL MEAN CHRIST CREATED ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING THAT IS IN HEAVEN

At Colossians 1:16 Paul spoke about all the things in heaven and earth that Christ was used to Create. This was evidently refering to all things in heaven with the exeception of which is uncreated,ie Almighty God Himself. Also Christ could not have created himself. So unless someone is arguing that Christ created YHWH and that Christ created himself, there are obviously exceptions to the "all things" being referred to. Thus for clarity the word other has been added to some translations.







JW


RELATED POSTS

Why does the New World Translation no put [brackets] around all their added words?
viewtopic.php?p=1111677#p1111677

[Eloi]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #346

The Scriptures I posted stand. For those who care to study them individually, in context, and consider the original languages of each (there are no commas in the Greek), I leave them to their own conclusions.

My goal is to share proofs that Jesus is Yahweh. We will each stand before the judgement seat of Christ and give an account. You for you. Me for me. I’ve shared God’s word. You’re free to accept the many Scriptures I’ve posted for what they say, or you can reject them. It’s your choice.

PS. You cannot use Scriptures to disprove Scriptures. You posted verses from Php., Col., and Eph. , but you did not prove the verses I posted to be wrong.

Be blessed,

MissKate

You did not say anything about the clear evidence that I posted from Eph., Php., and Col. that shows that YHWH and Christ are separate individuals. I can look at your references and I see that the TWO are mentioned, in spite of the errant non-inclusion of commas where they should be to make the meaning clear in English. (I thought that you would see the way the scriptures should be understood, after observing the greetings from Paul to the various congregations. How can you ignore them?)

Of course, they won't say anything about what the Bible says that contradict their beliefs. It is like they want to supplant the Bible's teachings with their own teachings, like the Jewish religious leaders in the time of Jesus ... lots of paraphernalia, but little truth.

1) Jesus was anointed by Jehovah: (Psal. 2:1,2 and Acts 4:26,27)

2) Jesus was the prophet "Moses-like" that Jehovah had promised: (Deut. 18:15-18 and Acts 3:18-22)

3) Jehovah sat Jesus Christ at His right hand when He raised him: (Psal. 110:1 and Eph. 1:17-23)

4) Jehovah chose Jesus as High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek: (Psal. 110:4 and Heb. 5:1-6)

5) Jesus is Jehovah's heir: (Psal. 2:7,8 and Heb. 1:2)

6) Jehovah declared Jesus Christ as His Son: (Psal. 2:7 and Heb. 5:5)

If anyone look those passages in both parts, in the OT and in the NT, they will see with total clarity that Jehovah is the Father of Jesus ... but they don't mind. It is like a game for them ... and all they do is make others to lose their time in their games, repeating and repeating and repeating the same things, in a loop they can't afford to get out of ... most probably they cann't.

[Eloi]

ALL THINGS OR ALL OTHER THINGS

The word “thing” is not in the original language, The KI has it in brackets, and they use it in their English translation as all translations do to make the verse more understandable.

As highlighted above all translation add words to their translations that are not in the original text. As long as this does not change the meaning from the writers evident intent this is not only acceptable it is desirable as it makes the verse more understandable in the target language.


DID PAUL MEAN CHRIST CREATED ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING THAT IS IN HEAVEN

At Colossians 1:16 Paul spoke about all the things in heaven and earth that Christ was used to Create. This was evidently refering to all things in heaven with the exeception of which is uncreated,ie Almighty God Himself. Also Christ could not have created himself. So unless someone is arguing that Christ created YHWH and that Christ created himself, there are obviously exceptions to the "all things" being referred to. Thus for clarity the word other has been added to some translations.

JW

RELATED POSTS

Why does the New World Translation no put [brackets] around all their added words?
viewtopic.php?p=1111677#p1111677

Totally true.

Other examples that the word "all" in Greek is not absolute are these:

Luke 13:2 In reply he said to them: “Do you think that those Gal·i·leʹans were worse sinners than all other Gal·i·leʹans because they have suffered these things?

... 21:29 With that he told them an illustration: “Notice the fig tree and all the other trees.

Philippians 2:21 For all the others are seeking their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality! Every other sin that a man may commit is outside his body, but whoever practices sexual immorality is sinning against his own body.

Most Bible translations and versions include OTHER in those texts, even if it is not in the original Greek, but because it must be there for logical reasons.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #379]

You buddy, JW, is the one who tried to justify 2 Peter 1:1 being two separate beings by citing the Sharp rule, but he didn’t state it correctly. Therefore, he was called on it by Difflugia, and rightfully so. I did my own research and found Difflugia to be correct. I suggest you do your own research as I did. Look up Granville Sharp’s rule for yourself, or just sit back and be content to believe what someone else tells you.

Also look at the other four verses from 2 Peter, which I posted. They have the same sentence construction as 2 Peter 1:1. After you’ve done that, then come back and tell me that those four verses are talking about two separate individuals.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #379]

Your buddy, JW, is the one who tried to justify 2 Peter 1:1 being two separate beings by citing the Sharp rule, but he didn’t state it correctly. Therefore, he was called on it by Difflugia, and rightfully so. I did my own research and found Difflugia to be correct. I suggest you do your own research as I did. Look up Granville Sharp’s rule for yourself, or just sit back and be content to believe what someone else tells you.

Also look at the other four verses from 2 Peter, which I posted. They have the same sentence construction as 2 Peter 1:1. After you’ve done that, then come back and tell me that those four verses are talking about two separate individuals.

[Eloi]

Look at this dialog:

Jesus told his listeners many times that their/his Father was in heaven. For example, Matthew records that teaching of Jesus here:

Matthew 5:16 Likewise, let your light shine before men, so that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens.
(...) 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. (...) You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

6:1 Take care not to practice your righteousness in front of men to be noticed by them; otherwise you will have no reward with your Father who is in the heavens.
(...) 9 You must pray, then, this way: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. ..."
(...) 14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you ...
(...) 26 Observe intently the birds of heaven; they do not sow seed or reap or gather into storehouses, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth more than they are? (...) 32 For all these are the things the nations are eagerly pursuing. Your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.

... 7:11 Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him!
(...) 21 Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.

... 10:32 Everyone, then, who acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father who is in the heavens. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens.

... 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, that one is my brother and sister and mother.

... 15:13 In reply he said: “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted.

... 16:17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did."

... 18:10 See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my Father who is in heaven.
(...) 14 Likewise, it is not a desirable thing to my Father who is in heaven for even one of these little ones to perish.
(...) 19 Again I tell you truly, if two of you on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them on account of my Father in heaven.
(...) 35 My heavenly Father will also deal with you in the same way if each of you does not forgive your brother from your heart.”

... 23:9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One.


Do you think that Jesus' followers did not know where the Father was?

Do you not get that with our great YHWH all things are possible, and that He can be in more than one place at a time? He can appear in many different forms. YHWH appeared to Abraham in the form of a man (Genesis 18:1)

He appeared as a cloud by day and fire by night. He is YHWH. NOTHING is impossible or too hard for Him.

“By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night.” (Exodus 13:21)

YHWH is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He is everywhere. He currently lives in my heart.

When you read things like that you become so amazed that start asking yourself if there is any real reason to lose time talking to some persons. There is not anything about logic, argument, reasoning, etc that work here. It is just darkness and delusion ... and the end of this is more of their demagoguery and antiwitnessing. We have to use better our time; it is one of our more valuable resources.

[JehovahsWitness]

in his human nature, he needed the authority given to him by his Father, but in his God nature, he did not.

WAS JESUS EQUAL IN AUTHORITY TO HIS FATHER WHEN IN HEAVEN IN SPIRIT FORM ?

There is nothing in scripture that indicates Jesus (The Word) in his spirit form does not need authority from his Father. John speaks of the Word being "sent" to earth which implies the authority to direct a subbordinate. And again, the prophetic Psalm 110 speaks of the Father instructing the resurrected Christ to sit at God's right hand and wait until the appointed time to take kingdom power.

Note the vision the Prophet Daniel was permitted to see which depicts not an earthly but a heavenly (clouds of the heavens) scene of Jesus before his Father "the Ancient of Days" ...

DANIEL 7:13, 14

“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man+ was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days,+ and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership,+ honor,+ and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him.+ His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.+

And again, notice how under inspiration the Apostle Paul explains what the resurrected glorified Christ will eventually do while in heaven

1 CORINTHIANS 15: 28

... then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

CONCLUSION Not only is it impossible to read these verses as anything but that the risen Christ in spirit form is a seperate and different individual to The Father , but that the Father always retains his universal and absolute authority over everyone including his Son, even when the latter is in the same Spirit form in heavens in his elevated position.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #364]

There is no conflict between Jeremiah 23:6 and Jeremiah 33:16. . The “Branch” himself is designated by YHWH as “THE YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. (23:6)

Jerusalem is designated by YHWH as “THE YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

Jeremiah, in both passages is speaking of a time in the distant future. In 33:16, Jeremiah is referring to when the people of God will be called “THE YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.” The Lord’s name becomes associated with His people ( See Isa. 43:7, Rev. 3:12; 22:4). And through his “gospel” of “righteousness” (Romans 1:16-17) the plan for man’s justification has been provided by means of the “Branch’s” atoning death (Romans 3:25-26). Christians, therefore, are accounted as righteous, hence in this accommodative sense, they become “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:3-4).

[tigger 2]

Post #373 by MissKate13

I did some research on Granville Sharp’s rule. Here is my understanding. Let me know if you agree.

Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word "and," and the first noun has the article ("the") while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person.

We see this in 2 Peter 1:1. “the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

We see the same in Titus 2:13. “of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,”

Both nouns in both verses are being applied to Jesus.

There are no exceptions to this rule.

2 Peter contains a total of five "Granville Sharp" constructions. They are 1:1, 1:11, 2:20, 3:2, and 3:18.

“For so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” ( 2 Peter 1:11)

“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,…” (2 Peter 2:20)

“that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,…” (2 Peter 3:2)

“but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (2Peter 3:20)

No one would question these verses. Consistency in translation demands that we not allow our personal prejudices to interfere with our rendering of God's Word.

….………………………………………
T2 reply:

Hi, MK13,

Sharp’s rule is rejected by numerous trinitarian scholars. Let’s examine your example of Titus 2:13 first (you really should tell us which Bible translation you’re using when you quote from it.)

Probably the most telling blow against this 200+ year-old controversial rule is the rejection of it by so many of the most respected trinitarian Bible language experts! Even Daniel Wallace himself (who desperately tries for some kind of “absolute” scriptural proof for a trinity idea) complains that
“so many grammarians and exegetes objected to the validity of Granville Sharp’s Rule with reference to texts dealing with the Deity of Christ”!
He specifically mentions “the great Greek grammarian,” G. B. Winer (trinitarian) and “one of the greatest grammarians of this [nineteenth/twentieth] century,” J. H. Moulton (trinitarian) as rejecting this “rule”!

I have also seen that the Roman Catholic scholar Karl Rahner rejects this rule as do C. F. D. Moule and Henry Alford. Even noted trinitarian scholar Dr. James Moffatt showed his rejection of the “absoluteness” of this rule by his rendering of Titus 2:13.

In fact, even very trinitarian Daniel B. Wallace complains that the common translation of Titus 2:13 as found in the KJV (“the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ”) treats “‘God’ and ‘Savior’ separately”! - Compare 2 Peter 1:1, 2 KJV). The same separation can be seen in the ASV (Titus 2:13), the Douay Version, and the NEB (footnote).

In vol. 5, p. 257 the respected The Expositor's Greek Testament says: "In the present case [Jude 1:4], however, the second noun (kupiov) belongs to the class of words which may stand without the article .... A similar doubtful case is found in Tit. ii. 13.... Other examples of the same kind are Eph. v. 5 ... 2 Thess. i: 12 ... 1 Tim. v. 21 (cf. 2 Tim. iv. 1) ... 2 Peter i. 1." [Except for kupiov, emphasis has been added by me.]

It is no secret to NT Grammarians that when you have more than one noun connected by "and" (kai in NT Greek) and the first noun has the article, the following nouns may or may not have the article but they can still be understood to have the article.

We can find numerous translations of Titus 2:13 (probably the most-used scripture for this “proof”) which render it as referring to two persons.

Titus 2:13

Bible translations old and new:

13 lokynge for that blessed hope and appearynge of the glory of ye greate God and of oure Sauioure Iesu Christ - Coverdale

13 lokynge for þe blessed hope & appearinge of the glory of the greate God, & of oure sauioure Iesu Christ, - The Great Bible

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ, - Geneva

13 abidinge the blessid hope and the comyng of the glorie of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist; - Wycliffe

13 lokinge for that blessed hope and glorious apperenge of ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ - Tyndale

13 in expectation of that desirable happiness, the glorious appearance of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ, - Mace

13 awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus, - Moffatt

13 expecting the blessed hope; namely, the appearing of the glory of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - The Living Oracles

13 looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - Noyes

13 waiting for the blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus, - Riverside

13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, - Sawyer

(KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious [F9] appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Note: 'F9 glorious...: Gr. the appearance of the glory of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ' - http://classic.studylight.org/desk/?l=e ... v&oq=&sr=1

(New American Bible - 1970) as we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus

(New American Bible - 1991) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(New American Bible - 2010) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(A New Translation in Plain English - Charles K. Williams) while we wait for the blessed thing we hope for, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ

And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. - Phillips

We are to be looking for the great hope and the coming of our great God and the One Who saves, Christ Jesus. - NLV

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ. - GNV

"looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ," - NMB

According to An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, at Titus 2:13, the sense "of the Great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ ... is possible in [New Testament] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article before the second noun]."

Noted British NT scholar and trinitarian clergyman Henry Alford wrote: "I would submit that [a translation which clearly differentiates God from Christ at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s [Paul’s] way of writing: and I have therefore preferred it." - The Greek Testament, p. 421, Vol. 3.

“Of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ (tou megalou qeou kai swthrov hmwn Cristou Ihsou). …. According to A.V. [KJV] two persons are indicated, God and Christ. Revelations with others rend. of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus, thus indicating one person, and asserting the deity of Christ. I adopt the latter, although the arguments and authorities in favor of the two renderings are very evenly balanced. 155” - Vincent’s Word Studies in the New Testament.

"Some Trinitarians say that the grammar of Titus 2:13 forces the interpretation that Jesus is God because of the Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar. That is not the case, however. The Granville Sharp rule has been debated and successfully challenged. When Scripture refers to “our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” it can indeed be referring to two separate beings: the 'Great God,' and the 'Savior,' Jesus Christ. The highly regarded Trinitarian Henry Alford gives a number of reasons as to why the grammar of the Greek does not force the interpretation of the passage to make Christ God (Henry Alford, The Greek Testament, Moody Press, Chicago, 1958, Vol. 3, entry on Titus 2:13)." - Revised English Version Commentary - Titus 2:13.

And, finally, concerning Titus 2:13, the steadfastly trinitarian The Expositor's Greek Testament (vol. 4, p. 195) says specifically of Titus 2:13:

"On the whole, then, we decide in favour of the R.V.m. in the rendering of this passage, appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. The grammatical argument - [Sharp's Rule] - is too slender to bear much weight, especially when we take into consideration not only the general neglect of the article in these epistles but the omission of it before σωτὴρ ['savior'] in I Tim. i. I, iv. 10 [1:1; 4:10]."

[Eloi]

At Prov. 24:21 in our Bible with References there is a very interesting note that shows that Sharp's rule is not the rule that its inventor believed it to be. About the Greek translation of the LXX in this text, the note says::

“My son, fear Jehovah [Heb., Yehwahʹ] and the king.” Gr., pho·bouʹ ton the·onʹ, hui·eʹ, kai ba·si·leʹa, “[My] son, fear God and the king.” Two distinct persons, “God” and “king,” are connected in Gr. by kai, “and.” In Gr. the definite article occurs before the first person, but it was not necessary before the second person, so it was omitted.

Pro. 24:21 My son, fear Jehovah and the king. With those who are for a change, do not intermeddle.

The LXX says (transliterated) : phobou ton theon, huie, kai basilea (literally: fear the God , son, and king) and it is not only one and the same person even if the supposed criteria for the rule are present. It is talking about God, and separately the king, two persons.