Mark 4:2 (KJV (WS))
And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
If the doctrine of Christ (the Word of God) is a doctrine of parables, then why do people take his words (the Word of God) as if they were plainly spoken words?
Matthew 13:34–35 (KJV (WS))
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
If the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ (the Word of God) did not speak without parables, then why do people take his words (the Word of God) as if they were plainly spoken words?
Proverbs 1:6 (KJV (WS))
To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
If the Bible tells us that parables (proverbs) need interpretation, then why do people take his words (the Word of God) as if they were plainly spoken words?
Proverbs 25:2 (KJV (WS))
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing (A WORD): but the honour of kings is to search out a matter (A WORD).
If it's God's glory to conceal his Word (which is precisely the purpose of parables), then why do people take his words (the Word of God) as if they were plainly spoken words?
Matthew 13:10–11 & 13 (KJV (WS))
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (that are without) it is not given.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mark 4:11 (KJV (WS))
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, ALL [these] THINGS are done in parables:
If the purpose of Christ (the Word of God) speaking in parables, was so that the mystery of the kingdom of God would not be able to be understood by those outside of the kingdom of God, then why do people take his words (the Word of God) as if they were plainly spoken words?
Where is the biblical justification for claiming that we are to take the Word of God at face value unless the immediate text informs us to take it another way? Did not the Bible tell us that Christ did not speak without parables? That God hides his Word so that kings (true believers) could search them out? That parables are for the express purpose of preventing understanding of what is meant by what is said? That parables are the doctrine by which Christ (the Word of God) speaks?
THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS A DOCTRINE OF PARABLES
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Re: THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS A DOCTRINE OF PARABLES
Post #2I think that revokes the idea that the doctrine of Christ is the doctrine of parables. Everything was and is explained for disciples of Jesus.Eddie Ramos wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 10:57 pm ...
Matthew 13:10–11 & 13 (KJV (WS))
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (that are without) it is not given. ...
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Re: THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS A DOCTRINE OF PARABLES
Post #3The doctrine of Christ being a doctrine of parables is not an idea, it's a passage from the scriptures that informs us how Christ spoke, and if we ignore that, then we will make the same mistake most Bible readers make and approach the Word of God as a plainly written book that was written for the reader to easily understand. But the opposite is true because the very purpose of parables was to conceal spiritual truth from the unsaved by using earthly stories, historical accounts, and other things the natural man is commonly familiar with.1213 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:18 amI think that revokes the idea that the doctrine of Christ is the doctrine of parables. Everything was and is explained for disciples of Jesus.Eddie Ramos wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 10:57 pm ...
Matthew 13:10–11 & 13 (KJV (WS))
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (that are without) it is not given. ...
These hidden spiritual truths are what Jesus (the Word of God) also helps us understand. But it doesn't cancel out the fact that the doctrine of Christ (the Word of God) was a doctrine of parables.
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Re: THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS A DOCTRINE OF PARABLES
Post #41213 has rightly pointed out that Jesus did speak plainly to his disciples.Eddie Ramos wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 10:47 pmThe doctrine of Christ being a doctrine of parables is not an idea, it's a passage from the scriptures that informs us how Christ spoke, and if we ignore that, then we will make the same mistake most Bible readers make and approach the Word of God as a plainly written book that was written for the reader to easily understand. But the opposite is true because the very purpose of parables was to conceal spiritual truth from the unsaved by using earthly stories, historical accounts, and other things the natural man is commonly familiar with.1213 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:18 amI think that revokes the idea that the doctrine of Christ is the doctrine of parables. Everything was and is explained for disciples of Jesus.Eddie Ramos wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 10:57 pm ...
Matthew 13:10–11 & 13 (KJV (WS))
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (that are without) it is not given. ...
These hidden spiritual truths are what Jesus (the Word of God) also helps us understand. But it doesn't cancel out the fact that the doctrine of Christ (the Word of God) was a doctrine of parables.
John 16:29 even says, “Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech.”
Jesus did use parable. He did not exclusively use parables. The scriptures tell us that, especially with his disciples who recorded his words, he both taught in parables and spoke plainly without parables.
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Re: THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS A DOCTRINE OF PARABLES
Post #5I can only find 1 place where we're specifically told that Christ spoke plainly to his disciples, but even that is teaching us a spiritual truth.bjs1 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:12 pm 1213 has rightly pointed out that Jesus did speak plainly to his disciples.
John 16:29 even says, “Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech.”
Jesus did use parable. He did not exclusively use parables. The scriptures tell us that, especially with his disciples who recorded his words, he both taught in parables and spoke plainly without parables.
John 11:14 (KJV (WS))
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
The context of the passage you quoted does not support the idea that Christ spoke plainly to his disciples, but in parables. It was the disciples who were always misunderstanding Christ's words. But why did they make that particular statement? We just need to back up and read the context to see if in fact Jesus was speaking to them plainly this time.
John 16:24–32 (KJV (WS))
Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. 29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. 30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. 31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? 32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
In this context, Christ was speaking as he always did, in parables. Then he tells them that the time will come when he will no longer speak to the disciples in parables, but when was that time and does that mean that he would begin to speak plainly? No, because he doesn't say that he will speak plainly, but that hew will show them plainly of the Father. This is also parabolic language indicating that the time would come when Christ would open up their understanding to the parabolic words he had already spoken. And this is when that time of being shown plainly took place historically:
Luke 18:31–34 (KJV (WS))
Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: 33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. 34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
Luke 24:44–45 (KJV (WS))
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
We must always keep in mind that one scripture never cancels out another, but we must always seek how they all harmonize. So when the Bible says that Christ did not speak without parables, then we can dismiss it and say that he spoke plainly to his disciples. Even when Christ explained certain parables to his disciples, the explanation itself was either also in parables (meaning it concealed spiritual truth) or it was by way of opening up of understanding of his parabolic language, because he did not speak without parables.
Matthew 16:5–12 (KJV (WS))
And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. 6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. 7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread. 8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? 9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? 11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? 12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
In this particular parable, Jesus uses leaven to speak to his disciples about taking heed, and since the natural minds of men by nature think naturally, they misunderstood and "reasoned among themselves" which is always a mistake in the bible. They figured since leaven has to do with bread, that Jesus must be warning them about the leaven of bread of the pharisees, yet instead of Christ speaking plainly, or even explaining it plainly, he goes on to reprimand them for their lack of understanding of his parable. But then verse 12 tells us that they finally understood what Jesus meant by what he said.
This is why God tells us that the doctrine of Christ was a doctrine of parables.
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Re: THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS A DOCTRINE OF PARABLES
Post #6To say that Jesus spoke only in parables is an absurd reduction of all of Jesus' education during his ministry. Jesus had such simple teachings that the common people would sit for hours listening to him, as in the Sermon on the Mount.
Actually, the vast majority of his followers were simple people without much scholarship, whom his teachings educated to the point of taking the message of the Kingdom of God far beyond just the Judean region.
But to whom did Jesus speak in parables? To the religious leaders mostly, because they would not accept the message they were receiving anyway. Their ears were dull and they were such proud people that not even seeing Jesus' miracles were they convinced that he had Jehovah's full support and approval.
Actually, the vast majority of his followers were simple people without much scholarship, whom his teachings educated to the point of taking the message of the Kingdom of God far beyond just the Judean region.
But to whom did Jesus speak in parables? To the religious leaders mostly, because they would not accept the message they were receiving anyway. Their ears were dull and they were such proud people that not even seeing Jesus' miracles were they convinced that he had Jehovah's full support and approval.
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Re: THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS A DOCTRINE OF PARABLES
Post #7I understand that you're giving your opinion here, but scripture would be helpful if your words are to carry any sort of weight. And while Jesus did speak in parables to the religious leaders, as well as everyone else, it wasn't because they would not accept the message, it was because they could not, because God had blinded them.Eloi wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:25 pm To say that Jesus spoke only in parables is an absurd reduction of all of Jesus' education during his ministry. Jesus had such simple teachings that the common people would sit for hours listening to him, as in the Sermon on the Mount.
Actually, the vast majority of his followers were simple people without much scholarship, whom his teachings educated to the point of taking the message of the Kingdom of God far beyond just the Judean region.
But to whom did Jesus speak in parables? To the religious leaders mostly, because they would not accept the message they were receiving anyway. Their ears were dull and they were such proud people that not even seeing Jesus' miracles were they convinced that he had Jehovah's full support and approval.
John 12:37-41 (KJV) 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Also, you can't ignore all the scriptures in the O.P. which expressly declare that Christ dis not speak without parables. That is because the doctrine of Christ is a doctrine of parables. The problem is that because we, by nature, are accustomed to reading a book like any other book and think that the author (God) wrote it the same way a common man would. Yet, this book is like no other in existence. This is a spiritual book written with spiritual truth concealed within seemingly plain language.
And one does not need to be a theologian to understand the spiritual truths of God. This is why Christ chose fishermen rather than teachers to be his disciples. To show that true wisdom is not obtained by any degree we can hang on our wall, but on the Holy Spirit revealing truth unto us as we rightly divide the Word of truth.
Acts 4:13 (KJV) 13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Matthew 13:16 (KJV) 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Also, the common people you speak of that would sit and follow Jesus and listen to him speak, did so, not because they wanted to learn any truths but because of what they could get from him. And your assumption that he spoke to them plainly is also not supported by the Bible.
Matthew 13:34 (KJV) 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
John 6:24-26 (KJV) 24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. 25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? 26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
So, while we would like to think, even insist, that Jesus (the Word of God) must have spoken plainly to the people, that's simply not the case.
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Re: THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS A DOCTRINE OF PARABLES
Post #8These are not my opinions ... they are facts.
That opinion (that the doctrine of Christ is a doctrine of parables) is very common among Bahais because they say the Bible is totally metaphorical. Beware when someone says that ... his intention may be to draw people to himself by giving personal meanings/interpretations to the Scriptures.
But what does Scripture say about that practice? It says:
2 Pet. 1:20 (...) no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.
So NO; the doctrine of Christ is not parabolic, and the message of the Bible is not metaphorical.
An opinion is: "the doctrine of Christ is a doctrine of parables" ... and it is totally erroneous, because Jesus was the best teacher someone can have.Eloi wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:25 pm To say that Jesus spoke only in parables is an absurd reduction of all of Jesus' education during his ministry. Jesus had such simple teachings that the common people would sit for hours listening to him, as in the Sermon on the Mount.
Actually, the vast majority of his followers were simple people without much scholarship, whom his teachings educated to the point of taking the message of the Kingdom of God far beyond just the Judean region.
But to whom did Jesus speak in parables? To the religious leaders mostly, because they would not accept the message they were receiving anyway. Their ears were dull and they were such proud people that not even seeing Jesus' miracles were they convinced that he had Jehovah's full support and approval.
That opinion (that the doctrine of Christ is a doctrine of parables) is very common among Bahais because they say the Bible is totally metaphorical. Beware when someone says that ... his intention may be to draw people to himself by giving personal meanings/interpretations to the Scriptures.
But what does Scripture say about that practice? It says:
2 Pet. 1:20 (...) no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.
So NO; the doctrine of Christ is not parabolic, and the message of the Bible is not metaphorical.
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Re: THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS A DOCTRINE OF PARABLES
Post #9That should be all we need right? ...however what comes next?Eddie Ramos wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:14 pmI can only find 1 place where we're specifically told that Christ spoke plainly to his disciples,bjs1 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:12 pm 1213 has rightly pointed out that Jesus did speak plainly to his disciples.
John 16:29 even says, “Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech.”
Jesus did use parable. He did not exclusively use parables. The scriptures tell us that, especially with his disciples who recorded his words, he both taught in parables and spoke plainly without parables.
It still can't be accepted at face value. Something must be added every time eh? It's like the drive to add something to scripture can't be turned off.but even that is teaching us a spiritual truth.
I don't think I could say to myself, "that can't be what it is saying" every time I read any scripture in the Bible. If I'm not deducting what the scripture says based on reading comprehension, then where am I getting my meanings to scripture from?
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Re: THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS A DOCTRINE OF PARABLES
Post #10The parables were to be understood by those with eyes and ears which can see and hear (Matthew 13:11-16), which according to Daniel 12:10, excludes the "wicked", "those who commit lawlessness" (Matthew 13:49-51), which are those who follow the false gospel of grace, the tare seed, enumerated by the false prophet Paul.Eddie Ramos wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 10:57 pm Mark 4:2 (KJV (WS))
And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
If the doctrine of Christ (the Word of God) is a doctrine of parables, then why do people take his words (the Word of God) as if they were plainly spoken words?
Matthew 13:34–35 (KJV (WS))
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
If the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ (the Word of God) did not speak without parables, then why do people take his words (the Word of God) as if they were plainly spoken words?
Proverbs 1:6 (KJV (WS))
To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
If the Bible tells us that parables (proverbs) need interpretation, then why do people take his words (the Word of God) as if they were plainly spoken words?
Proverbs 25:2 (KJV (WS))
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing (A WORD): but the honour of kings is to search out a matter (A WORD).
If it's God's glory to conceal his Word (which is precisely the purpose of parables), then why do people take his words (the Word of God) as if they were plainly spoken words?
Matthew 13:10–11 & 13 (KJV (WS))
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (that are without) it is not given.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mark 4:11 (KJV (WS))
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, ALL [these] THINGS are done in parables:
If the purpose of Christ (the Word of God) speaking in parables, was so that the mystery of the kingdom of God would not be able to be understood by those outside of the kingdom of God, then why do people take his words (the Word of God) as if they were plainly spoken words?
Where is the biblical justification for claiming that we are to take the Word of God at face value unless the immediate text informs us to take it another way? Did not the Bible tell us that Christ did not speak without parables? That God hides his Word so that kings (true believers) could search them out? That parables are for the express purpose of preventing understanding of what is meant by what is said? That parables are the doctrine by which Christ (the Word of God) speaks?