Did Adam make the right choice?

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Revelations won
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Did Adam make the right choice?

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Post by Revelations won »

Did Adam make the right choice?

Did Adam make the right choice in partaking of the fruit from the tree of knowledge and should we be grateful to him and give due respect and honor our first earthly parents?

2. Did Adam’s choice prohibit anyone from receiving ALL that our Father in heaven has ever promised us pertaining to our eternal destiny?

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

Post #41

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:55 pm The Bible give no answer whatever regarding how Adam could fulfill the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth as a lone man in the garden of eden.

If anyone has an answer, then let's hear it with the supporting scriptural evidence.
Lets reason it out shall we.



Had Eve been punished with death but Adam remained faithful there would have been two options open?


1. Allow Eve to mother children and eventually die of old age. Or ...
OPTION #1

This is more or less what happens today, people have children, grow old and eventually die. Jesus demonstrated that a perfect child can be born of an imperfect mother if fathered by a perfect father.
2. Create another partner for Adam


OPTION #2
- who created Eve?
- Did Adam have other ribs?
- Is God omnipotent?



RELATED POSTS
To learn more please go to other posts related to

SICKNESS , DEATH, and ... ADAM
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

Post #42

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:07 am
Miles wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:55 pm The Bible give no answer whatever regarding how Adam could fulfill the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth as a lone man in the garden of eden.

If anyone has an answer, then let's hear it with the supporting scriptural evidence.
Lets reason it out shall we.



Had Eve been punished with death but Adam remained faithful there would have been two options open?


1. Allow Eve to mother children and eventually die of old age. Or ...
OPTION #1

This is more or less what happens today, people have children, grow old and eventually die. Jesus demonstrated that a perfect child can be born of an imperfect mother if fathered by a perfect father.
2. Create another partner for Adam


OPTION #2
- who created Eve?
- Did Adam have other ribs?
- Is God omnipotent?
That was Revelations' comment, not mine.



.

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

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Post by Purple Knight »

The Tanager wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:51 am I think Adam and Eve made the wrong choice. Instead of trusting in their omniscient, omnibenevolent Creator, they chose to trust their own limited wisdom to decide what would be good/bad for them.
That's why I think it was the right choice. Because of their limited wisdom, they had no idea if their creator was really omnibenevolent or not.

Their creator gave them a good life. So if you like that's reason enough to trust him. But then, he didn't give them much knowledge so there's always a massive blank about his motives and goals. If reaching for more knowledge is the wrong thing to do in that situation, I think it very much incriminates the one declaring that to be wrong.

Trust and understanding go hand-in-hand. If someone really loves you, he'll help you understand if at all possible. That's a huge part of what generates trust: Openness. Making that leap of faith when necessary is not something wise people generally do for someone who gatekeeps knowledge.

That said, I don't think Adam and Eve thought about any of that. The story makes them seem like ignorant infants who just act on whatever they were told last. They had no idea that it would be wrong to heed the serpent over their creator because they weren't created with that kind of knowledge instilled in them.

That just reinforces my position that if you have a deficit of knowledge, reach for more knowledge. It may turn out that it's the wrong thing to do, in case the book of knowledge is booby-trapped or something, but if you have no way to know that, it's the right move from your perspective.

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

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Post by 2timothy316 »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:41 pm
The Tanager wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:51 am I think Adam and Eve made the wrong choice. Instead of trusting in their omniscient, omnibenevolent Creator, they chose to trust their own limited wisdom to decide what would be good/bad for them.
That's why I think it was the right choice. Because of their limited wisdom, they had no idea if their creator was really omnibenevolent or not.

Their creator gave them a good life. So if you like that's reason enough to trust him. But then, he didn't give them much knowledge so there's always a massive blank about his motives and goals. If reaching for more knowledge is the wrong thing to do in that situation, I think it very much incriminates the one declaring that to be wrong.
This is what I used to think until I realized that the Tree of Knowledge didn't mean it had knowledge in its fruit. A&E were not born with everything they needed to know. The tree, which was no different than than any other tree other than the Tree of Life. (Note that Eve's eye didn't open as soon as she ate from the tree, it was only after Adam did too. Gen 3:6, 7) The tree was a lesson to move A&E forward in knowledge. Likely the first of many lessons to come. First lesson was to learn there are boundaries. The commandment was do not eat of a particular tree. Follow that commandment and live. Go against this and parish. This was likely the first of many commandments to follow. It might have been that once the lesson was over and they had proven they can stay within God's boundaries, A&E could once again eat from that tree.

But oh no. They didn't like having boundaries placed on them. Mankind today still struggle with this, even with their own laws and not just God's laws. Reaching more knowledge is not wrong and this was not what A&E was after. They wanted 'to be like God, making their choices between good and bad'. They didn't want guidance and someone to show them what was out of bounds. It also seems that this was no spur of the moment decision. It seems they pondered over it for a time. Enough that Eve had convinced herself that, "the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at." (Gen 3:6) She pondered long enough that she convinced herself that the tree wouldn't kill her but that it was just food but she doesn't think it would give her knowledge.

I do not see a massive blank as to God's intentions for mankind. He created mankind not because he needs to be loved or He needs to love. But because He WANTS to love more things. He wants to teach us things and He wants us to be smart and full of knowledge. He also wants us to be wise with what we have learned. He wants us all to have enjoyable work using the things we have learned and enjoy the fruits of that work. However, mankind had to start somewhere to gain all of these things. Sadly, A&E didn't use what they had learned wisely but rather they disobeyed in the hopes of becoming their own leaders. Sounds like a repeating human theme eh? They did what they wanted and their choices lead them to death. Anyway, now there is a huge question that needs to be answered. Does mankind of the right to rule themselves? Does anyone else?

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

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Post by The Tanager »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:41 pmThat's why I think it was the right choice. Because of their limited wisdom, they had no idea if their creator was really omnibenevolent or not.

Their creator gave them a good life. So if you like that's reason enough to trust him. But then, he didn't give them much knowledge so there's always a massive blank about his motives and goals. If reaching for more knowledge is the wrong thing to do in that situation, I think it very much incriminates the one declaring that to be wrong.

Trust and understanding go hand-in-hand. If someone really loves you, he'll help you understand if at all possible. That's a huge part of what generates trust: Openness. Making that leap of faith when necessary is not something wise people generally do for someone who gatekeeps knowledge.
I don’t think they had any evidence that they shouldn’t trust their creator. All they’ve seen is goodness and wisdom from God. That’s very much the picture the narrative gives. He gave them so much goodness and put one thing off limits within that context of being so good and loving to them. The problem isn’t about seeking knowledge, but how it is being sought. God is there to guide them. But they want to shortcut things and decide on their own, while knowingly having limited knowledge to do so wisely. This wouldn’t incriminate the creator.

But let’s assume it was necessarily doomed because of the way humans were created. In this reaching for knowledge, humans do find out how limited their knowledge is and the pain that can come from it. This wouldn’t incriminate the creator, either, for it would be the way to show free will creatures the danger of not relying on God’s wisdom. It would be a natural way for the creator to build trust and understanding.
Purple Knight wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:41 pmThat said, I don't think Adam and Eve thought about any of that. The story makes them seem like ignorant infants who just act on whatever they were told last. They had no idea that it would be wrong to heed the serpent over their creator because they weren't created with that kind of knowledge instilled in them.

That just reinforces my position that if you have a deficit of knowledge, reach for more knowledge. It may turn out that it's the wrong thing to do, in case the book of knowledge is booby-trapped or something, but if you have no way to know that, it's the right move from your perspective.
The narrative makes it absolutely clear that they knew it would be wrong to heed the serpent. Eve repeats the command God gave them and the narrative paints God as completely trustworthy.

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

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Post by 2timothy316 »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:25 am
But let’s assume it was necessarily doomed because of the way humans were created. In this reaching for knowledge, humans do find out how limited their knowledge is and the pain that can come from it. This wouldn’t incriminate the creator, either, for it would be the way to show free will creatures the danger of not relying on God’s wisdom. It would be a natural way for the creator to build trust and understanding.
Dooming a couple to eternal death on purpose just to show others after them a lesson is not a righteous act. No person in their right mind would throw 2 people off a cliff just to each 100 others the dangers of gravity. Certainly a being with all the power and knowledge there is to have can think of a better way to teach without condemning people. Ecc 9:10 says, "there is no...knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave". So while everyone else gets to benefit from seeing why it's not wise to go their own way, their would always be 2 people that were made imperfect that never got to understand why and that would be unrighteous on God's part.

Think too if God fully expected Adam and Eve to fail why make the Tree of Life available to them then take it away? If their doom was supposed to be necessary why not deny them the Tree of Life in the first place not after they have sinned?

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

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Post by The Tanager »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:35 am
The Tanager wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:25 am
But let’s assume it was necessarily doomed because of the way humans were created. In this reaching for knowledge, humans do find out how limited their knowledge is and the pain that can come from it. This wouldn’t incriminate the creator, either, for it would be the way to show free will creatures the danger of not relying on God’s wisdom. It would be a natural way for the creator to build trust and understanding.
Dooming a couple to eternal death on purpose just to show others after them a lesson is not a righteous act. No person in their right mind would throw 2 people off a cliff just to each 100 others the dangers of gravity. Certainly a being with all the power and knowledge there is to have can think of a better way to teach without condemning people. Ecc 9:10 says, "there is no...knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave". So while everyone else gets to benefit from seeing why it's not wise to go their own way, their would always be 2 people that were made imperfect that never got to understand why and that would be unrighteous on God's part.

Think too if God fully expected Adam and Eve to fail why make the Tree of Life available to them then take it away? If their doom was supposed to be necessary why not deny them the Tree of Life in the first place not after they have sinned?
To make sure it's clear, I'm not saying humans were doomed by their very nature; I was assuming what looked like to me Purple Knight's general point and analyzed what would follow if that were true. Also, I didn't say it would be to show others a lesson. It would be God providing Adam and Eve with the chance of gaining the needed knowledge that relying on their own (limited) knowledge would lead to bad results, giving them the reason to trust God's commands even when the situation doesn't make sense to their eyes.

As you point out, one possible problem with this (from the perspective of the narrative) would be the Tree of Life and God exiling the humans from it for something God wanted them to go through.

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

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Post by boatsnguitars »

How did Adam get the impulse to disobey God? Didn't his parents raise him up right or was he just born bad?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

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Post by 2timothy316 »

boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:25 pm How did Adam get the impulse to disobey God? Didn't his parents raise him up right or was he just born bad?
"But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death." James 1:15
"Adam was not deceived.”​—1 Timothy 2:11-14

The thought came from himself and he knew what he was doing was wrong.

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

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Post by Purple Knight »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:16 amBut oh no. They didn't like having boundaries placed on them. Mankind today still struggle with this, even with their own laws and not just God's laws.
Some people just reject any authority because they are selfish, self-centered and greedy.

However, the other side is that if you don't understand the reason for a law, there is no way for you to distinct it from an objectively bad, oppressive law.
The Tanager wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:25 amThe narrative makes it absolutely clear that they knew it would be wrong to heed the serpent. Eve repeats the command God gave them and the narrative paints God as completely trustworthy.
Only because we're sitting here reading it, and the result of eating the fruit was a bad one.

Now yes, God giving Adam and Eve a beautiful place to live, full of food, where they were out of any suffering or pain, is a big deal.

And yet, I can't help but notice that if we allow this to be instructional, the lesson to take, and the question to ask, ("Does not having this thing really hurt me? Do I still have a good life?") fails to provide an adequate foil for tyrants making bad and oppressive laws, if they boil the frog and do it slowly. The answer, each time, will be that it is such a little imposition, and our glorious leader has given us so, so much, that we ought to just trust him.

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