Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

[Compassionist]

Most religions claim that souls exist. Some religions claim that souls are immortal and are reincarnated after the death of the body while other religions claim that souls are immortal and are resurrected after the death of the body. Can anyone please prove that souls exist and are either resurrected or reincarnated? Thank you.

[boatsnguitars]

Classic Creationist question:

Suppose in the future that neuroscientists know everything there is to know about the brain, central nervous system, matter. Mary is one of those neuroscientists. She knows everything there is to know about the physical theory of hearing. But she was born deaf. Then, other scientists figure out how to get her the ability to hear. Wouldn’t she gain knowledge she didn’t have before? About what it is like to hear. If she knew all the physical facts prior to gaining her hearing, then this mental state (of knowing what it is like to hear) cannot be fully explained by the physical facts or she would have already known it.

"Suppose"... "Imagine"....

If Mary knows everything, then she gains no knowledge. It's absurd, but spoken like it's a deep question. Knowing everything would include the experiences. Mary clearly wouldn't know everything about hearing, not having hearing. Of course she would gain knowledge - the knowledge the other scientists would have.

But the reason it's such a creationist question is that it has to suppose something that hasn't and will most likely never happen. This is where they live. In a fanmtasy land of conjecture and "suppose" and "gee, wouldn't it be great I God existed and loved me!"

Let's rephrase the question:

Imagine you know everything about a piece of paper, but the light is off. You turn on the light and you see that it's a slightly different color! You just learned info! You didn't account for the rose colored glasses you're wearing!

[boatsnguitars]

I never said human consciousness wasn’t dependent on the brain; I’ve said it is.

You need to explain this. In what way? How does it interact with your supernatural "soul"?

Also, simple question: Where do you go when you sleep? Why don't we experience other worlds, Heaven, or whatever, when we sleep - with the same, or more, clarity as when we are awake? What is sleep for, in your Dualist conception of reality?

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #539]

A1. If there are things true of X that aren’t true of Y, then X and Y are not the same thing
A2. There are things true of conscious states that aren’t true of brain states.
A3. Therefore, conscious states and brain states are not the same thing.

Even so, none can say with certainty or from necessity, that the “non-physical” aspects being argued for (re the mind) are truly non-physical.

[The Tanager]

A1. If there are things true of X that aren’t true of Y, then X and Y are not the same thing
A2. There are things true of conscious states that aren’t true of brain states.
A3. Therefore, conscious states and brain states are not the same thing.

Even so, none can say with certainty or from necessity, that the “non-physical” aspects being argued for (re the mind) are truly non-physical.

So, you agree the mind is not the body or brain, but think it is still something physical?

[William]

A1. If there are things true of X that aren’t true of Y, then X and Y are not the same thing
A2. There are things true of conscious states that aren’t true of brain states.
A3. Therefore, conscious states and brain states are not the same thing.

Even so, none can say with certainty or from necessity, that the “non-physical” aspects being argued for (re the mind) are truly non-physical.

So, you agree the mind is not the body or brain, but think it is still something physical?

I find it a curiosity that you do not know already that this is my view and position on things.

Philosophical Discourse on Spirituality, Mindfulness, and Purpose
Post #8

[The Tanager]

I find it a curiosity that you do not know already that this is my view and position on things.

I was pretty sure it was, but I was playing it safe in case I had misunderstood you or you had changed your mind. Okay, so what is the physical evidence of this physical mind?

[William]

I find it a curiosity that you do not know already that this is my view and position on things.

I was pretty sure it was, but I was playing it safe in case I had misunderstood you or you had changed your mind. Okay, so what is the physical evidence of this physical mind?

What do you mean by physical evidence? Surely all evidence is physical - naturally so.

Do you believe that the mind/consciousness is truly non-physical, or is it that you lean that way until you are shown otherwise?

[The Tanager]

What do you mean by physical evidence? Surely all evidence is physical - naturally so.

Do you believe that the mind/consciousness is truly non-physical, or is it that you lean that way until you are shown otherwise?

No, not all evidence is physical (logical evidence, for instance). The belief that all evidence is physical is self-defeating because there isn't physical evidence of that belief.

Yes, I believe the mind is non-physical. No, it's not the default position. Neither is yours. What evidence do you have that the mind is physical.

[boatsnguitars]

What evidence do you have that the mind is physical.

Tanager, I find this incredibly disingenuous. If you aren't aware of the evidence, you have been arguing in bad faith. I am very well versed in the claims you make for a non-physical mind.

Be honest: Have you researched or ever been told about the evidence for a material basis for the mind?

[boatsnguitars]

Just to end this back and forth. Here are the major arguments for each side of the debate. There may be more, but this is the discussion. Dualists prefer their evidence, Physicalists prefer their evidence. There will no longer be an excuse for Tanager to ask for evidence, or to act as if there is none for Physicalism:

EVIDENCE FOR A PHYSICALIST THEORY OF MIND

Philosophical Arguments:
Ockham's Razor/Principle of Parsimony: A Materialist/Physical Theory of Mind aligns with Ockham's Razor, a philosophical principle that encourages simplicity and economy in explanations. Materialism suggests a straightforward and parsimonious approach by positing that physical entities and processes are sufficient to explain all phenomena, avoiding the need for additional non-physical entities.

Unity of Science/Consistency with Scientific Method: A Materialist/Physical Theory of Mind is consistent with the scientific method, which relies on empirical evidence and the study of the physical world. The success of the scientific enterprise in explaining natural phenomena supports the idea that the physical world can account for the entirety of reality.

Evolutionary Biology/Adaptation of Consciousness: A Materialist/Physical Theory of Mind is consistent with an evolutionary perspective, suggesting that consciousness and mental processes have evolved as adaptive traits in organisms. The physical brain, shaped by natural selection, can account for the development of cognitive capacities.
Reductionist Strategies:

Successful Reductionism: A Materialist/Physical Theory of Mind employs reductionist strategies, aiming to explain complex phenomena by reducing them to simpler, underlying components. The success of reductionism in various scientific domains, such as molecular biology and physics, supports the idea that understanding complex systems at a fundamental level is achievable through materialistic explanations.

Causal Closure of the Physical:
Causal Completeness of Physics: A Materialist/Physical Theory of Mind is consistent with the idea that the physical world is causally closed, meaning that physical events have physical causes. This aligns with the principle that all events, including mental events, can be ultimately explained by physical causes without invoking non-physical entities.
Explanatory Power:

Predictive and Explanatory Success: A Materialist/Physical Theory of Mind has demonstrated predictive and explanatory success in various scientific domains. The ability of materialistic frameworks to make accurate predictions and explain diverse phenomena reinforces the idea that the physicalist approach is a fruitful and reliable method for understanding the world.

Neurological Correlates:
Brain Lesions and Disorders: Observations of changes in cognition and behavior due to brain lesions or disorders provide evidence of a connection between the mind and the physical brain.
Neuroimaging Studies: Technologies like fMRI and PET scans allow researchers to observe brain activity associated with mental processes, suggesting a direct link between mental functions and specific brain regions.

Pharmacological Interventions:
Psychotropic Drugs: The effects of drugs on mental states provide evidence that altering the biochemical balance in the brain can directly impact consciousness and cognition.

Genetic Influences:
Inherited Traits: Certain mental disorders and cognitive traits have been linked to specific genetic factors, supporting the idea that the mind has a physical basis encoded in DNA.

Developmental Neuroscience:
Brain Development: Studies of brain development in embryos and infants show the formation and maturation of neural structures corresponding to cognitive functions, suggesting a physical basis for mental processes.

Consciousness during Brain Activity:
Consciousness Correlates: The fact that consciousness is often altered or lost during states of reduced brain activity, such as during anesthesia or deep sleep, suggests a connection between the mind and brain function.

Emergence from Physical Systems:
Computational Models: The development of computational models that simulate cognitive processes supports the idea that the mind can emerge from complex physical systems, such as neural networks.

Neuroplasticity:
Adaptive Changes: The brain's ability to reorganize itself in response to experiences (neuroplasticity) supports the idea that the physical structure of the brain is intimately connected to mental processes.

Evolutionary Perspective:
Brain Evolution: The evolution of the brain over time suggests a relationship between cognitive abilities and the physical structure of the brain, supporting the idea that the mind is a product of biological evolution.


EVIDENCE FOR A DUALIST THEORY OF MIND

Philosophical Arguments:
Dualism: Dualistic philosophies, such as Cartesian dualism, propose a separation between the mind and the body. René Descartes, for example, argued that the mind and body are distinct substances, with the mind existing independently of the physical body.

Subjective Experience:
Qualia: Some argue that subjective experiences, or qualia, are not easily reducible to physical processes. The "hard problem of consciousness," as formulated by David Chalmers, questions how physical processes give rise to subjective experience.

Free Will:
Agency and Free Will: The concept of free will is often considered incompatible with a purely deterministic, physical worldview. Some argue that the subjective experience of agency and free will suggests a non-physical aspect to the mind.

Near-Death Experiences:
Anecdotal Reports: Some individuals report having near-death experiences where they claim to have had consciousness outside of their physical body. While these reports are often anecdotal and controversial, they are sometimes cited as evidence for a non-physical aspect to consciousness.

Parapsychology:
Extrasensory Perception (ESP): Some parapsychologists study phenomena such as telepathy, precognition, and psychokinesis, suggesting the existence of mental capacities that go beyond what can be explained solely by physical processes.

Eastern Philosophical Traditions:
Mind-Body Unity: Philosophical traditions such as certain forms of Eastern philosophy propose a holistic view of the mind and body, suggesting that the mind is not separate from the physical but is interconnected with a larger, universal consciousness.



GREY AREA:

Quantum Consciousness Hypothesis:
Quantum Effects: Some theories propose that quantum phenomena, which operate at the subatomic level, may play a role in consciousness. The "orchestrated objective reduction" (Orch-OR) theory, proposed by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff, suggests that quantum processes in microtubules within neurons contribute to consciousness.