Is there only one trinity doctrine or are there many?

[2timothy316]

Trinitarians are not one group.

Is this true? Are there different groups of trinitarians that all have different trinity doctrines?

[2timothy316]

What 'general questions' should we ask?

That's up to you. But you started to assemble a set of questions in post #47.

Now that I think about it, after many years on this forum no one has ever made a thread that declared what the trinity is. Or do us non-trinitairans need to do this for you? So that you can say its wrong, yet never explain it yourself. We are on to your tricks.

You seem confused here.

You keep saying that and I keep saying yes, most non-trinitarians are confused, but still no one is explaining the trinity. How can we ask general questions if no one is explaining EXACTLY what the trinity is?
Can you answer at least one question so we all be less confused? It's a question that no trinitarian so far will touch....

One poster said of the trinity, "God whose full reality defies exhaustive description."
Can no one actually describe the trinity?

[bjs1]

You keep saying that and I keep saying yes, most non-trinitarians are confused, but still no one is explaining the trinity. How can we ask general questions if no one is explaining EXACTLY what the trinity is?
Can you answer at least one question so we all be less confused? It's a question that no trinitarian so far will touch....

One poster said of the trinity, "God whose full reality defies exhaustive description."
Can no one actually describe the trinity?

I am hesitant to write this because I am concerned that my words will be taken out of context. After all, this entire thread came from taking Tam’s words out of context. So, in the hope that what I write will be kept in context, here goes:

Yes, the triune God defies description. He defies understanding. He is inherently and infinitely above us. For a human to understand God would be like a single cell ameba understanding humanity. Except, it would actually be much more severe than that. A human is exponentially more complex than an ameba, but God is infinitely greater than a human. We cannot truly grasp infinity, much less understand and describe a God who is infinite.

This is one of the things that first drew me to the Christian religion. Orthodox Christianity accepts this reality. It describes a God Who is three and Who is one. It introduces a Creator who became a part of His creation. It holds to the biblical truths that there is one God, that Jesus is God, that the Father is God, and yet Jesus and the Father are distinct. That transcends logic, and yet it is true. It defies understanding, much less explanation, but any real God must defy understanding.

As Plato point out when he critiqued Greek paganism, the Greek gods were basically humans just bigger. They could be understood as humans who had lots of power. If there exists a real infinite God who created everything that is, then this God would have to be, at His very fundamental nature, beyond human understanding.

If I were to claim that I understand God, then that would be the surest sign that I have no idea who God is.

[2timothy316]

You keep saying that and I keep saying yes, most non-trinitarians are confused, but still no one is explaining the trinity. How can we ask general questions if no one is explaining EXACTLY what the trinity is?
Can you answer at least one question so we all be less confused? It's a question that no trinitarian so far will touch....

One poster said of the trinity, "God whose full reality defies exhaustive description."
Can no one actually describe the trinity?

I am hesitant to write this because I am concerned that my words will be taken out of context. After all, this entire thread came from taking Tam’s words out of context. So, in the hope that what I write will be kept in context, here goes:

Yes, the triune God defies description. He defies understanding. He is inherently and infinitely above us. For a human to understand God would be like a single cell ameba understanding humanity. Except, it would actually be much more severe than that. A human is exponentially more complex than an ameba, but God is infinitely greater than a human. We cannot truly grasp infinity, much less understand and describe a God who is infinite.

This is one of the things that first drew me to the Christian religion. Orthodox Christianity acceptance of this reality. It describes a God Who is three and Who is one. It introduces a Creator who became a part of His creation. It holds to the biblical truths that there is one God, that Jesus is God, that the Father is God, and yet Jesus and the Father are distinct. That transcends logic, and yet it is true. It defies understanding, much less explanation, but any real God must defy understanding.

As Plato point out when he critiqued Greek paganism, the Greek gods were basically humans just bigger. They could be understood as humans who just had lots of power. If there exists a real infinite God who created everything that is, then this God would have to be, at His very fundamental nature, beyond human understanding.

If I were to claim that I understand God, then that would be the surest sign that I have no idea who God is.

If the triune god defies description then what is the point of teaching it? And when this undefinable doctrine is taught, why get upset when a person doesn't get it and thus doesn't believe it?
What right does a trinitarian have to call a non-trinitarian person a non-Christian when their very core teaching can't be fully taught? (and yes, I know you're not making this claim personally, I'm speaking about what I have been called and heard what others have been called)

If one can't explain the trinity, should one be listened to as a defender of the trinity?

If I were to claim that I understand God, then that would be the surest sign that I have no idea who God is.

This is a paradoxical statement. You don't know and because you don't, you...do? (Statements like this is why I get so confused)
Let's think about this statement for a second and reverse it.
If you were to claim that you didn't understand God, then that would be a sure sign that you have an idea who God is.

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”​—John 17:3

So clarify for me and remove the paradox. Do trinitarians know who God is?

[historia]

How can we ask general questions if no one is explaining EXACTLY what the trinity is?

There is a whole section of this website, Questions About a Belief, that is designed expressly for this purpose.

Just pose your questions in a new thread there.

Can no one actually describe the trinity?

As already noted above, the description of the Trinity you'll find in standard reference works like Wikipedia or Encyclopedia Brittanica is sufficient for our purposes.

If you have more detailed questions about it, again, just pose those in a new thread.

One poster said of the trinity, "God whose full reality defies exhaustive description."

Yeah, this article in the Awake magazine from 1992 makes the same basic point:

The Bible does give us many details about God as a Person, about his qualities and about how he deals with mankind. But it also explains that his wisdom and intelligence are beyond human understanding. Thus, the prophet Isaiah says that God’s ways and thoughts are much higher than those of man.—Isaiah 55:8, 9.

The impossibility of knowing every single thing about God should not surprise us. For example, even though our knowledge of the universe is constantly increasing, scientists admit that they will probably never truly get to the bottom of the mysteries of the infinitely small or the infinitely large. So how could any creature know completely the depth of God’s wisdom, he who is the Creator? Job confessed to Jehovah: "I was not understanding things too wonderful for me, which I do not know." (Job 42:3; compare Romans 11:33.) Thus, full knowledge of God is, in some respects, beyond our limited understanding.

Now, that Awake article goes on to criticize the doctrine of the Trinity. But at least it acknowledges the basic point that you seem to want to contest here: that we cannot have an exhaustive understanding of God.

I wouldn't think this was controversial.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #73]

A poster said,

Yes, the triune God defies description. He defies understanding.

Do think this statement is true about the triune god?

[2timothy316]

The Bible does give us many details about God as a Person, about his qualities and about how he deals with mankind. But it also explains that his wisdom and intelligence are beyond human understanding. Thus, the prophet Isaiah says that God’s ways and thoughts are much higher than those of man.—Isaiah 55:8, 9.

The impossibility of knowing every single thing about God should not surprise us. For example, even though our knowledge of the universe is constantly increasing, scientists admit that they will probably never truly get to the bottom of the mysteries of the infinitely small or the infinitely large. So how could any creature know completely the depth of God’s wisdom, he who is the Creator? Job confessed to Jehovah: "I was not understanding things too wonderful for me, which I do not know." (Job 42:3; compare Romans 11:33.) Thus, full knowledge of God is, in some respects, beyond our limited understanding.

Now, that Awake article goes on to criticize the doctrine of the Trinity. But at least it acknowledges the basic point that you seem to want to contest here: that we cannot have an exhaustive understanding of God.

I wouldn't think this was controversial.

Your snippet there It is talking about "his wisdom and intelligence" that is beyond our understanding, not if God is one or three. Whether God is a trinity not beyond our understanding. No where in the Bible does it say that understanding God as a single being is beyond our reach. The doctrine of the trinity teaches that how the triune god being three persons is beyond understanding.
Nice try but this is another straw-man. Stick to what we are debating. The trinity.

Understanding the trinity is beyond everyone's reach right?

[Difflugia]

Your snippet there It is talking about "his wisdom and intelligence" that is beyond our understanding, not if God is one or three.
Nice try but this is another straw-man. Stick to what we are debating. The trinity.

You doubling down on a mistake doesn't make pointing it out a straw man.

[2timothy316]

Your snippet there It is talking about "his wisdom and intelligence" that is beyond our understanding, not if God is one or three.
Nice try but this is another straw-man. Stick to what we are debating. The trinity.

You doubling down on a mistake doesn't make pointing it out a straw man.

This isn't the first time this 'mistake' has been made. I figure it's on purpose at this point when someone keeps talking about something else every time they post something.
viewtopic.php?p=1113112#p1113112

[Difflugia]

This isn't the first time this 'mistake' has been made.

The mistake was an apparently overbroad rhetorical question about the understandability of God. Instead of copping to it, you tried to claim that your statement was limited in ways not immediately apparent.

[2timothy316]

This isn't the first time this 'mistake' has been made.

The mistake was an apparently overbroad rhetorical question about the understandability of God. Instead of copping to it, you tried to claim that your statement was limited in ways not immediately apparent.

Are we ever going to get back on topic?